A New Modern Class 5 ?

Enable JavaScript to get the best experience.

Search Subscribed Active Create new topic

> 10 years ago

General Sail making Construction Blokarts Events & Competition

Hiko

1229 posts

Hiko

1229 posts

14 May 2010 3:22pm

Yes sorry Gizmo we seem to have got carried away off topic a bit
Cheers Hiko

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

14 May 2010 5:12pm

The speed figures are interesting in themselves, it was starting to get intesting in comparisons between yachts and surfaces.

Simple logic tells you a small yacht with a small sail will be slower than a larger high tech yacht with a larger more efficent rig. I just feel... and others have confimed this that there is a need for an intermediate land yacht that feeds into Class5.
In water sailing its there, you don't go from an Optimist, Sabot, Heron or Mirror dinghy straight to an 18ft skiff or other olympic classes.
Most sports are the same progressing in gradual steps.

Clemco

430 posts

Clemco

430 posts

14 May 2010 4:11pm

The Australian Class 2 Mini fits that gap perfectly. Is anyone building them now?

Gizmo

2865 posts

Gizmo

SA, 2865 posts

14 May 2010 6:16pm

Clemco said...

The Australian Class 2 Mini fits that gap perfectly. Is anyone building them now?

Thats what a LLMini is if the sail is greater than 4sqM (most of the sails made so far are that)
A class5 yacht chassis fits into Mini class1.

Clemco

430 posts

Clemco

430 posts

14 May 2010 6:45pm

Well so it should be. If you need that much sail area you need a bigger yacht.

cisco

QLD

12365 posts

cisco

QLD, 12365 posts

14 May 2010 10:25pm

Gizmo said...
I started this thread looking for a home built yacht of a modern design to be an intermediate step to take sailors from the LLMini to High Tech Class5, so they can use the construction skills they might have aquired in building their first yacht.

I would like to stick with that concept to the letter.

Very much a natural progression.

Clemco

430 posts

Clemco

430 posts

15 May 2010 7:29am

cisco said...

I would like to stick with that concept to the letter.

Very much a natural progression.

If you build your LLF Mini (or Class3 mini) with a Y frame all you have to do is add longer tubes to extend it to the next size class, and maybe move the seat back a 100mm . This does not work with a T frame as the mast ends up too far aft. I will be converting the first mini frame I made to a class 2 mini very soon.

landyacht

5921 posts

landyacht

WA, 5921 posts

15 May 2010 11:43am

Back in 2005 here at lefroy we(I) experimented with a variety of lengths and widths, mast positions smaller than class 5. 6 yachts in total. There were 2 yachts built to what you are now calling mini cl2. we refered to them as MIDI's , great yachts ...etc.
All those yacht ended up in the LLmini
we actually cut up the midis as they really didnt offer anything that couldnt be got from a LLmini, and we felt sure that if new builders saw midis they would have this urge to build on the basis that" bigger is better", when realistically its not.
a further comparison on the speed differences can be seen from a sail testing session i had last year between my PROMO and a Tframe LLM.
the wind was a bit silly and the salt a bit damp , so I would sail the yacht till it lost grip and gave up. the wind would eventually get under the seat at the speed where Aerodynamics became very important . best speed for the LLmini was 82kph(3m sail) and the promo was 88kph(4m sail).
basically the mini showed that it was a yacht that could be sailed use in 5-30knts, sailed by kids and big folk, raced , or just for fun, and simply ticked the boxes as a great size.
I makes me realize that Paul Beckett has really ticked a lot of boxes with a blokart.

I do also wonder if perhaps I and others should have less yachts and spend more time actually saiing them

cisco

QLD

12365 posts

cisco

QLD, 12365 posts

15 May 2010 2:16pm

I also like that idea Clemco. The Y frame can be OTT or SOT (seat on top).

I believe Gizmo's Atom design would also be a good design to accommodate Mini Specs convertible to Class5.

Just waiting on him to complete the yacht and then post drawings, specs and photos into "The Atom Bulid Thread". Of course I am not trying to put any pressure on him.

The idea of a core "frame/seat/mast step" which set up with axle tubes, steering head, Fallshaw wheels and a 4 metre rig so as to fall within LLF Mini specs, and then be able to change to a class5 specs with extended tubes for axles and steering head using the larger sulky wheels and BMX wheel (all off the shelf items), and a 5 metre rig is what I would like to make a reality.

No doubt there will be some compromise somewhere. For one, it would probably mean that in the class 5 configureation, having the pilot's feet behind the mast would not be possible. That I believe is how some of the "Class 5s" are now.

Also, ideal positioning of pilot weight may not be achieveable.

If the design was optimised for performance as a Mini Yacht but, in class 5 configureation, a definite leap in performance was achieved, I think a lot of people would build them.

Another consideration is that the 5 metre rig could be used in Mini mode as a light air sail and vice versa, the 4 metre rig in class5 mode as a storm sail.

Food for thought and an experiment waiting to be done I think.

Clemco

430 posts

Clemco

430 posts

16 May 2010 6:35am

Dave Webster's Phoenix Swift would be a good intermediate yacht between the mini class and class 5. It fits into class 2 mini specs nicely. How do they compare performance wise with a LLF Mini?

cisco

QLD

12365 posts

cisco

QLD, 12365 posts

16 May 2010 12:17pm

Can't say really. Look here to get some idea. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=50945

landyacht

5921 posts

landyacht

WA, 5921 posts

16 May 2010 6:12pm

with the 5m rig they got away a bit quicker, except when they didnt , otherwise they were pretty much equal to the LLmini. . Of course that is what I saw. Others watching from the sidelines may have got a different view of the sailing and would be interested to hear thier comments. I did feel that they lifted a wheel easily, but you need to consider that they had a rather sit up kind of seat and higher boom , not dis-similar to the seagull yachts of similar size. if you had a layback set up ,lower rig and some more Y in the rear axles to help lower the CG, they could probably match a Wheelbarrow wheeled class 5 , and become too fast for a small venue

IPKSA

177 posts

IPKSA

177 posts

17 May 2010 8:58am

We stopped sailing Class 5 in Ireland and moved to Standarts , why Class 5 sailing became almost like cheque book sailing - we could not afford to be competitive ! That said I kept mine for fun and its grrrrrrrrrrrreat . We get far more sailing done and have far more fun with the miniyachts circa €1000 ready to go for a Potty miniyacht - www.minilandyachts.com from Wales.

Plume - French Class 5 seem to be winning all in Uk -

Alan

see video

aus230

1660 posts

aus230

WA, 1660 posts

19 May 2010 9:31pm

bit disapointed that someone seems to think that two class2 minis laped the class3 mini's at the aus comps. I certinaly dont recall anything like that. The class2 minis where great looking yachts but try as I may I canot see how another class can get established. The blocarts have the monopaly in the class3 with a spatering of home built minies fitting into that class size (the class3 minis appear to be growing in numbers and satisfiring the home builder.) Maybe I am wrong and would be more than happy to see a fleet of class2 sailing around.

landyacht

5921 posts

landyacht

WA, 5921 posts

20 May 2010 2:40pm

i couldnt find the comment your refering to vic. maybe the poster has deleted it when he realized it was the other way around

or maybe im not looking properly again

Clemco

430 posts

Clemco

430 posts

3 Jul 2010 2:01pm

Gizmo said...

Cisco you've got it....

Im NOT thinking a new class at all, class5 is there and works VERY well.
KEEP CLASS 5 and keep it under FISLY control...
What the sport is now getting is lots of new sailors with the building of the LLMini, this might have been their first welding project at home or school. Many of those builders after time are wanting to spread their wings so to speak.
If a frame that meets class5 specs with similar concepts of the LLMini but grown up a bit (to Class5 size), using their original LLMini wheels and rig, to get them sailing in a bigger class. Get people used to this size of yacht and no it will never be as fast as a full high tech yacht.
Hopefully this would tempt the taste buds and inspire them into high tech Class5 yachts in time.

So what im thinking is an "Intermediate" yacht

I will bring this thread back to Gizmo's subject. An Intermediate class between Blokart/Mini and Class5.
I like the Irish length of string rule to establish a maximum footprint size. Why not choose a length of circumference that is half way between the Irish Mini 5.6m and a class 5 (mine measures around 7.6m) so I guess 6.6m is what we should be looking at as being the only rule.

Please Register, or first...

Topics Reply