need help with first build

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grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
27 Sep 2010 7:54am
OK not much progress despite lots of work.

I've cut and taped the sail, however the sewing part is doing my head in! I've aquired an old singer 287 sewing maching that i'm allowed to do what i want with. HOWEVER I am having trouble getting this (Insert swear word here) thing to sew properly. Apart from tension issues, i am contuing to break needles on thicker sectons. However i increase the needle size it skips stitches. Any ideas?

Also after much consideration, i've decided to cut the mast step off and weld on the piece of pipe i got from iand, so that the mast will sit inside the step, not outide like originally planned. The reasons are that i'm not convinced the mast won't break, also the variation in wall thckness's in masts mean that i will have to modify this if i have to change the mast. (I should know better not to mess with teh original design)

Nikrum
Nikrum
TAS
1972 posts
TAS, 1972 posts
27 Sep 2010 8:32am
Hi There Lynchman'
Am I allowed to laugh at your predicaments??
Sorry, No no don't hit me in the face! Not the face!
I am just flicking through your predicaments Right now I have been complaining of the same problems Yup! My head was also being done in, but time and patients has solved most of it..
I was having trouble getting my Skull around the sail as well until I received a call from GIZMO. Thanks mate.
Hopefully he will get involved in this one as well. The upshot of what he explained to me is that the sail doesn't require any Belly at all, so then it must be as flat as a Salt Pan. You must at this stage in the game stick to the Formula presented in the sail making page
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Sail-making/How-I-recut-sailboard-sails-to-suit-landyachts/
(It is the best developed so far ) By having a Flat Sail/Bed Sheet, you gain top end speed but loose low end power. So what do you want?? The same as us speed freaks?? Do a little research in the LY pages. You will also find the Crockett Down-haul system mentioned by Landyacht (Paul) Common Logic will tell you that it is brilliant. Use it. The worst thing you can do is to treat Sails as a difficult problem as when you come to know the reasons for doing it the way recommended then it becomes a simple problem. The Mast and Sheet will do all the work and it seems that the sheet controls the tension on the Crockett Down-haul.

Gizmo. Have I got it right?? If someone is willing to help me in the course of keeping the sport popular then I am only to willing to reciprocate and further our cause (Don Quixote De La Mancha is my idle)
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
27 Sep 2010 8:48am
YES you seem to get it with the sail shape, the mast is the key thing to put the draft (or curve) in the sail and take it out to get better speed, the down haul also assists the flattening but it also moves where the draft forms in the curve of the sail, down haul brings it forward which give forward motion rather than tipping force.
There are several versions of down haul systems, the one I have used over the years is....


Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
27 Sep 2010 8:07am
grlynch said...

OK not much progress despite lots of work.

I've cut and taped the sail, however the sewing part is doing my head in! I've aquired an old singer 287 sewing maching that i'm allowed to do what i want with. HOWEVER I am having trouble getting this (Insert swear word here) thing to sew properly. Apart from tension issues, i am contuing to break needles on thicker sectons. However i increase the needle size it skips stitches. Any ideas?


Hi I dont profess to be an expert on sewing but I found getting a sewing machine mechanic to set the machine up worked wonders on our Janome domestic
Machines seem to have a preference for thread, needles etc also
There are many different types on the market so trying different types may help
Another thing we found on the heavy areas was a touch of silcon spray helped with the penetration of the needle but made the drive teeth slip a bit so we had to help with the feeding of the matierial in those areas if any got on the teeth
underneath
Character building!!!


landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
27 Sep 2010 7:21pm
on the sewing side, the needle not punching through is telling you to have a think just how thick you want some areas.
i have broken dozens of needles on my machine and am coming to know what types of webbing ,monofilms etc not to sew.
try stepping back and trialing some test pieces of your sail cloths to see how many layers you can sew with what is effectively an unsuitable machine. , do you need great chunks of webbing in these light duty sails?
every time your machine stops with a clunk , your timing will slip slightly , till you need to reset it , so you will need to have somebody who knows how instruct you how to do it . I have had to retime my machine 3 times on one sail before
learning to do it gives you a much greater appreciation of what you are doing
for me , it has been one of the highlights of building my own stuff

on the sail recutting side, the last thing you want is a flat sail., you just want to recut the sail to make it flatter than one would normally use for windsurfing.
Aus 230 currently is being troubled by a 4m tushingham that is already too flat for a landyacht.
today i rigged a 3.8 recut from an old rushwind sail that is the fullest sail Ive ever had, and in a light wind it was a ripper, very stable and one of the best sails ive had for a while for keeping on 2 wheels, whilst still being fast.
grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
28 Sep 2010 7:19am
landyacht said...

on the sewing side, the needle not punching through is telling you to have a think just how thick you want some areas.
i have broken dozens of needles on my machine and am coming to know what types of webbing ,monofilms etc not to sew.
try stepping back and trialing some test pieces of your sail cloths to see how many layers you can sew with what is effectively an unsuitable machine. , do you need great chunks of webbing in these light duty sails?
every time your machine stops with a clunk , your timing will slip slightly , till you need to reset it , so you will need to have somebody who knows how instruct you how to do it . I have had to retime my machine 3 times on one sail before
learning to do it gives you a much greater appreciation of what you are doing
for me , it has been one of the highlights of building my own stuff


Quick bit of reasearch, and a play with the timing has improved things a fair bit. I think you are definately onto something paul!. It appears the problem is the thickness in sections. When sewing multiple layers, it skips stitches, however only one side of the zig-zag, (only on the machine side, is this the Zig or the Zag). Might have a bit more of a play with the timing tonight to see if it improves further.

Failing this i might have to take Hiko's advice and get it checked. (how do you know when you have built enough character?)
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
28 Sep 2010 8:27am
Might have a bit more of a play with the timing tonight to see if it improves further.

Failing this i might have to take Hiko's advice and get it checked. (how do you know when you have built enough character?)


I dont think you ever know that and if you ever think its fully built then that would be proof enough that it isnt

grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
29 Sep 2010 8:01am
Hey Paul,

Is there a specific needle type you use on your machine? The section of sail I am having trouble with is only 4 layers thick plus the tape, and it dosn't seem to have problem getting through it.

Do you tape your seams then sew through the tape? I am wondering if it's the glue from the tape causing the problem.
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
29 Sep 2010 6:59am
Our domestic Janome handled thin doublesided sellotape OK
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
29 Sep 2010 4:41pm
grlynch said...

Hey Paul,

Is there a specific needle type you use on your machine? The section of sail I am having trouble with is only 4 layers thick plus the tape, and it dosn't seem to have problem getting through it.

Do you tape your seams then sew through the tape? I am wondering if it's the glue from the tape causing the problem.
the description of your stitch is definitely timing. i had the same thing.
I use a 140 needle and size 36 polycotton. comes in 3000m rolls,4 rolls per year domestic denim needles are a 90 for comparison.
how do know when youve built enough character? easy. you need to start building a bigger shed to fit it all in

grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
16 Oct 2010 10:21am
Long time between posts, Finally got the sewing sorted, (sort of) All it took was some decent thread, (biggest break through), timing adjustment, and 4 new swear words, (only two starting with "F"). I now officially know too much about sewing machines, (pretty cool piece of engineering though!)

It's not pretty but not bad for a first attempt. (I managed to lick up a couple of additional sails recently which are probably better, so this is being treated as a learning exercise!) The only thing left is an eyelet at the base, and some battens. I thought I was onto something when I found them at Whitworths for about $7ea. However they are only 1200 long, I need 1500 for the longest.






I am looking a the extension required to get the height right, however can anyone tell me how much vertical movement I should expect on the boom?

iand
iand
QLD
243 posts
QLD, 243 posts
16 Oct 2010 11:51am
depending on the stiffness of the mast,curve of the luff 400mm+
grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
16 Oct 2010 1:43pm
iand said...

depending on the stiffness of the mast,curve of the luff 400mm+


Hi Iand,
Really? 400mm sounds a bit big. I was only going to mount the boom about 450-500mm up from the spine. Might be some misunderstanding here, I was just trying to work out how much tracel to expect.


Also I have just been out and about looking at battens. The fiberglass batten from Whitworths seems to be very flexible. THere was an earlier suggestion to look at the yellow toungue strip, and from a very agricultural test I don't think it is much softer than the fiberglass batten i was looking at. (the batten I was playing with was 25mm x 2mm.) I though i should then head over to the surf shop to check out what they use nowadays, and they are very stiff carbon fibre tube, (at about $80 each) I am starting to think about making some timber battens, do you think tassie oak would be suitable? It is readilly availiable and reasonably priced.
iand
iand
QLD
243 posts
QLD, 243 posts
16 Oct 2010 4:12pm
yes Glenn a misunderstanding I thought you meant from the end of boom to whip
with the sail already finished I'd bring the sail up the mast till when sheeted you have enough leech tension. I personally wouldn't touch the yellow tongue strip- way to soft and you need a similar bend ratio with different length ie. the longer the batten the stiffer they need to be with the exception being the top one or two. get a price on battens from a sailmaker $80 should see enough battens for two sails not one batten expressly if you ask if they have any 2nd hand. Manders ,Allwoods or Dolye Fraser arn't far from you (I've found all three to be very helpful with various boat sails)
grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
17 Oct 2010 6:10pm
I think the battens are sorted. Thanks to Padi at SurfConnect at Sandgate. Found him advertising on this site and he hooked me up with about collection of battens for about $5 ea. Hardest part was finding matching battens and tearing the family away from the park with such great wether today, (finally).
grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
20 Oct 2010 9:42am
Just looking a the boom now, and I am wondering how much force is on it and how strong it has to be. I am considering using a piece of a windsurfer wishbone boom. I know that Iand has used this in the past it it seems to work.

Has anyone managed to break a boom? if so what was it made from?
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
20 Oct 2010 6:24pm
thats what Im using on my 2 minis at the moment
sn
sn
WA
2775 posts
sn sn
WA, 2775 posts
20 Oct 2010 8:32pm
our boom is also a section of sail board boom straightened out, and it has so far refused to break- not for lack of trying
grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
22 Oct 2010 8:26pm
Can anyone supply a photo of how you mount a rowlock to an oval section of wishbone boom please?

I am considering finding a piece of round timber the right size and drifting it into the tube forcing it round. (alternatively turning it on a lathe)

The alternative is to put two screws thru the tube into the plastic rowlock, seal with magic, and fill around the rowlock with epoxy, thru a small hole.


Also Paul, with the timber seat in the build sticky, did you actually fiberglass the entire timber seat, or just over the joins and use the polyester, (or something else) to seal the rest? I've started with a timber seat for this first build, and have used some recycled plywood packing timber, and it's pretty ordinary quality.

Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
22 Oct 2010 7:14pm
Whats the recommended method for straightening sail board booms ?
cant think of a way and have one here that might be useful
grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
22 Oct 2010 9:17pm
Hiko said...

Whats the recommended method for straightening sail board booms ?
cant think of a way and have one here that might be useful


To be honest i'm not planning on straightining it at all. The curve on tube only just begins at the 1500ish mark on the booms I have. Which will almost puts the rowlock a the right angle without having to drill at a wierd angle.
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
22 Oct 2010 7:21pm
grlynch said...

Hiko said...

Whats the recommended method for straightening sail board booms ?
cant think of a way and have one here that might be useful


To be honest i'm not planning on straightining it at all. The curve on tube only just begins at the 1500ish mark on the booms I have. Which will almost puts the rowlock a the right angle without having to drill at a wierd angle.


OK This one doesnt seem to be long enough for that
sn
sn
WA
2775 posts
sn sn
WA, 2775 posts
23 Oct 2010 9:34am
I removed the ends from the tube, and used 2 piles of bricks to rest the tube on and gradually pushed/ bounced it until it was straight.

but it wasnt as easy as it sounds.
iand
iand
QLD
243 posts
QLD, 243 posts
23 Oct 2010 11:43am
I put a piece of water pipe inside it and wedged it on the drawbar of the trailer and bent it straight
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
23 Oct 2010 11:12am
I had this Mini chassis and an old windsurf boom laying around so thought I would make up another yacht So am now looking to straighten another old windsurf boom for it Here is progress so far


I really need to stop this sort of thing
Here it is folded I have stayed with the ski axle theory for this second one


Happy with the result seems comfortable Yet to sail it
Am thinking about putting a removable seat back on it as well so children can use the foot steering Still to figure that part out
grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
23 Oct 2010 1:54pm
I love it!

I haven't heard much on the ski axle front for a while. I was watching this with great intrepedation previously, as I keep seeing ski's aroung the traps for next to nothing. Is it worth pursuing?
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
23 Oct 2010 12:23pm
Well I like them One did break when the yacht was being sailed by someone else
so not exactly sure of the circumstances and that axle had binding holes right in the wrong place strength wise I thought the holes wouldnt matter obvously I was wrong Havent had any further breakages but I have spares !
They take a little longer to assemble the way I have done them Four bolts to do up versus two pins but I do like the springyness and as you say they are easy to come by Just cut them to avoid the binding holes seems to be the way
I use the front of the skis for mainsheet extensions at the back of the seat
I thought of using a ski for front suspension as well but rejected that as not worth it
grlynch
grlynch
QLD
208 posts
QLD, 208 posts
23 Oct 2010 3:13pm
I'm trying not to stray too far from the original Mini design for the first buld. However I'm thinking of moving out of the box for the next build. Yhe design in my head is taking shape. I am expecting some monumental disasters and some "I told you so's" but I'm keen to try some things, and I've leant a lot already.

Back on the boom issue, can anyone please post a pictire of howyou've attached the rowlock to the oval boom tube?

Also, (I know I shouldn't raise too many issues in one post, but anyway) I have not been able to source a suitable Eyelet for the bottom of the sail, (downhaul point) I've bought several types and they are all crap, (note they are all from the Big Green Shed, and wern't very dear) however i noticed the plastic grommets for "tarp repair" and they look fine. They are made of nylon, and seeing as though there is not really any rope pulling through it to melt it, it looks fine. any thoughts?

Thanks
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
23 Oct 2010 3:25pm
On a couple of my sails I just made two plates one each side of the sail
A hole through for the shackle or whatever and riveted on with Pop rivets
Punch the nail head out of the middle as they will rust and rivet the back side down with a small ball pein hammer with the head side on something solid
The plates can be shaped from plastic or aluminium or SS
Worked for me and many yacht sails are done in a similar way Especially the head
On the rowlock issue I dont use them so thats an easy fix for me
Keeping to the original LLF Mini design is a good way to go ---well proven
I just cant help myself sometimes its a fault I have
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
24 Oct 2010 9:01am
Love the windsurf boom, this is THE MOST STYLISH solution yet.
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