Alrighty sooo when the new 2013 gear is released I'll be buying a couple kites.
So I'm currently riding a 2011 switchblade 11m, Im into wake style, crusing and race.
I've been kiting I think 8 months and my ability is upto learning mobes which I'll have down by next session.
My current switchblade is starting to slow me down as looping drops me hard no matter how hard or soft I go.

I learnt to kite on an old Vegas and its still my favourite kite.

So what I want to know is how the travel of the bar feels on the Vegas of 2011/2012.
I've demoed a 2012 Naish torch and 2011 fuel and 2011/2012 c4.

Torch bar feeling. I found the torch to feel exactly like my other 7 c kites I have in my cupboard from 2005-2007 years, the bar and lines seem like they could have been straight from 2003 and I was not impressed. The kite had a very small amount of range befor the lines became slack and did nothing to the kite, having pointless depower throw length. I also found the kite to have a tiny range where I felt it actually worked and unhooking I had to run full depower to stop it back stalling. And when the kite is flown above there is still a huge amount of lift and I found I lost alot of power as the kite was slower to accelerate. I hated the kite untill I looped a raley, but there is still no way I would buy that kite, old technology I reckon, what's changed since c kites in 2003?

Switchblade bar feeling. The switchy is very nice to ride because of the large depower throw that the kite follows. When the bar is out the kites angle of attack changes through the entire bar throw range and when the kite is above twitch bar out there is little to no pressure allowing the kite to accelerate and the bar to be slammed in to get big lift, for beach starts and transition jumps.

Fuel bar feeling. The fuel was tested straight after the torch and I found a bit better but still not what I'm after. Can also tick this off my list, I want to try the rpm though.

Ozone c4 bar feeling. The c4 really did tick all the boxes for me as thelarge depower throw worked all through the range. Fast loops although alot of work to fly I found it fun, although I was sweating the entire time. C4 is a maybe to buy

Soooo what I want to know is how does the Vegas feel in the depower aspect.
Does the range of bar throw match what the kite does? Or when you let the bar out a bit the lines slack and do nothing to the kite which continues to pull you at half throttle?
When the kite is flown above is there a large amount of lift when the bar is out?
And what setting the kite is on as the wakestyle setting would effect the depower.
And how are the loops?

So obviously it's to do with the front line position, bridle changes the point, but the Vegas has a high mounting point that would increase the depower range away from a traditional c.
Sorry about the huge post hopefully will help some people out when deciding.
Thanks in advance

Switch is not a looping kite period.

You said: Ozone c4 bar feeling. The c4 really did tick all the boxes for me as thelarge depower throw worked all through the range. Fast loops although alot of work to fly I found it fun, although I was sweating the entire time. C4 is a maybe to buy

Soooo what I want to know is how does the Vegas feel in the depower aspect.
Does the range of bar throw match what the kite does? Or when you let the bar out a bit the lines slack and do nothing to the kite which continues to pull you at half throttle?
When the kite is flown above is there a large amount of lift when the bar is out?
And what setting the kite is on as the wakestyle setting would effect the depower.
And how are the loops?


The vegas is similar to the range of bar throw etc similar to C4. You also need to work the Vegas like the C4 but probably not as much. The vegas will drop you much quicker than the C4 is bar let out, the C4 is a better boosting kite. The vegas is more forgiving on the loops, it loops really well, better than the C4 but only just. Not sure about wakestyle setting as I always ride free-ride setting as that is enough for me. Both unhook well.

The difference: C4 has a bigger wind range at the upper end. The vegas has probably better low end. Vegas loops a little more forgiving (gives you a sudden uplift as you bring it around), but the C4 is still fantastic. The Vegas is a no brainer, the C4 has to be flown, you need to learn to fly the wing. The C4 boosts better. Both are surprisingly good in the waves (a fact that doesn't get a lot of mention). Better than the rebel in my opinion due to the rebels pivot/stall characteristics and less ability to bleed of power, as the rebel flies forward then sits back in the window. The vegas eats gusts, not sure of the C4, haven't ridden it long enough and in different conditions.

Also....the bar pressure on the Vegas is heavy compared to the C4, but the it has been rumored they have dropped the bar pressure in the 2013 batch to come.

Both are awesome kites, you want 5 or 4 lines? You want a very stable canopy of something that is stable enough. Probably the deciding factors as they both will do the job nicely.

Post back here on the 2013 Vegas please!

Killing it for 8 months bro! Something to aim for ;)

im not sure but would the 5th line reduce impact damage when unhooked ?
and at your level would you suicide it or 5th line ?

i hope you choose a c4 . im very happy with mine
the middle bridle settings are quite different .
but havent tried the steer lines yet

you should try my ion 4 ? am enjoying it now as im flying it in stronger winds . that has helped it relaunch . 8.5m in 20kn ish now .
more grunt than c4 but a bit slower speed . quick turns .imo

Hey Ron I'd definitly run suicide. The amount of times I crash I would not want to be pulling in the fith and resetting all the time.
I have made a fully custom setup for my switchblade and clip my safety around the plastic tubing above the quick release so I don't get twists in my leash/chicken loop.

Not that I've have anything against other brands but I think I'll stick to the main ones, although I do like the look of the new bridled c made by core.

Probably no work tomorrow again because of rain so I'll either take my old Vegas 9m out or the 9m fuel. Or maybe the liquid force spectrum 8 or the switchblade 8.
Haha so many old kites I have to choose from.

8 months and somehow I have 9 kites

reeling in the 5th would be painfull
does the cabrinah have a mini 5th set up ? ids ?
im not sure of its advantage over suicide yet.
but it should depower the kite more

hope to see you out there tommorow ?

cauncy said...

hey troy when you demo the vegas put it in the water and try the relaunch , im not bagging the kite as it flys great but the relaunch is an issue , ive seen a local floating around for ages trying to get it back up in good winds

Yeh cauncy is right there, another thing they have addressed (apparently) in the 2013.

I haven't had any issues, but don't drop it often. If you are going to push the limits into freestyle then relaunch is something you will have to consider,

You guys have made up my mind hahah

As for relaunch, with a fifth line and knowing how to use it there is no reason you shouldn't be able to launch in less than most four line kites.

The cabrinha has a ids line that when the safety is pulled flags to both front lines. My custom setup has gotten rid of that, I use the 2010 pro kit swivel chicken loop and I've made custom adjustable dyneema lines that V directly above the depower strap, and shattered the swivel so that's gone too.
This is so I can pass the bar through the V easily when tangles occur. And the swivel never worked in the first place so it's awesome to be able to manually unspin the lines. I kind of go out and just try the same trick over and over to get into rhythm so the lines become twisted the same direction when learning new stuff.


Well I'm waiting for the call from the boss about the weather but there is a good chance I'll be down at shearwater today.

Hi Troy. Reading your post it sounds like one of the most important characteristic with a new kite to you is its ability to de power. A true C kite will have nowhere near the de power of your switchblade.
Are you sure you really want a C kite?
You have said you are into wakestyle and want to try powered handle passes. Have you considered that there may be characteristics with the new kite you get, that will be more important to this style of riding than just the kites ability to de power?
Just putting it out there for you, but if you get a Vagas, They do look a lot better next year. Look's more like a Torch or, Fuel.

^^^^

Oh okay...fair enough.

I've done a bit of my own bridle design on old c kites to improve the depower travel.
It's the range of angle of attack that the kite can cover that determines the amount of depower avaliable.
When the kite is fully powered without oversheeting is one end of the scale, when letting the bar out the kites AOA changes to a point where the kite becomes balanced over the front lines, or where a bridle is used the balance point keeps moving as the pulleys travel and the kites AOA decreases until the bar becomes out of reach.
This also applies to an ozone c4 bridle as the bridle sits slightly towards the center of the kite rather than mounted directly at the front corner of the kite, at full power the bridle sits directly below the leading edge. As the bar is let out, the bridle moves forward and outward moving the balance allowing more depower.

From what I can see from the Vegas is that the front lines are attached further up the leading edge rather than on the front corner, the fact that it is attached higher allows the balance point to be more forward when the AOA is decreased. Hence allowing more depower than a standard c kite where the balance point is fixed at the front corner and can't move.
When at full power the kite should perform 100% as a normal c.
As the front line attachment point is up higher you can see the requirement for the curved leading edge between front and rear line attachments, this is also visible on the c4 and fuel.

From my experience passing with the switchblade I've found that the line slack is pretty crap, but I'm not really woried about that as its probably my technique. But I would imagine a c kite having worse slack. If others can do the tricks they do on these kites I'm sure it's possible for me to harden up.

I need diagrams to explain all this better

Tom court is old news, look out for me now haha.
All that's left now is to demo and see how it goes.

Troyrotor said...

I've done a bit of my own bridle design on old c kites to improve the depower travel.
It's the range of angle of attack that the kite can cover that determines the amount of depower avaliable.
When the kite is fully powered without oversheeting is one end of the scale, when letting the bar out the kites AOA changes to a point where the kite becomes balanced over the front lines, or where a bridle is used the balance point keeps moving as the pulleys travel and the kites AOA decreases until the bar becomes out of reach.
This also applies to an ozone c4 bridle as the bridle sits slightly towards the center of the kite rather than mounted directly at the front corner of the kite, at full power the bridle sits directly below the leading edge. As the bar is let out, the bridle moves forward and outward moving the balance allowing more depower.

I like trains.....

slower then the switchy!! holy **** no.

Mate picked up an sparkly 2012 vegas 9m had it up in the air and i fell in love, have to give it a whirl first but looking at picking up an 8 or a 9 im thinking!! (ps cracked the egg on darkslides!)

The reason I'm concerned about speed is that my switchblade is perfect except the speed.
I know I'm comparing the 13m to an 11m but the power is less. So there is no point comparing an 11m chaos to a 11m switchy when the chaos can't be used untill 20+knots, I should compare a 9m switchy to a 11m chaos.

Speed is a big deal when it comes to light wind, I can get more power out of my 11 than I can on a 12. The chaos put out less power than my 11 and was too slow to sin to get power.

The chaos unhooked was very heavy steering wise, I normally steer with my hands close to the center of the bar, the chaos needed hands toward the outside and still had to put so much effort into steering. I know this is desired in learning unhooked tricks but the effort need to steer is too much.
The usual c shape of a kite gives a big jelly fish after the pop, allowing line slack, the chaos didn't. The kite looks c style but feels exactly like every other cabrinha kite.

Thanks gibilator the Vegas is still sounding like the right kite.