seafever17 said...

For a more accurate comparison you would probably be better off weighing them. Cant be much difference if any in the fabric. Probably most manufacturers are getting it from the same factories. Beats dicking around trying to measure a kite accurately.

I don't think this approach would work. Three strut kites are much lighter than 5 strut kites. Fabric also varies greatly between manufacturers.

daggy said...
Set up some kind of international standard where a kite is launched in a wind tunnel kind arrangement in a given wind strength (say 20 knots) and how much pull it produces is measured.
AND THIS IS THE NUMBER ON THE SIDE OF YOUR KITE
oh my god, I'm a genius...I'm gonna have to go and have a lie down.
.

The DHV standard is well accepted around the world for paragliding. It doesn't specify the above details, tho. I would say impossible task.

I am sure we have some geniuses amongst us (I wont start naming them just now), but I don't think it takes a genius to compare two similar shape kites by knowing

Surface area
Projected area
Aspect ratio

Just as with cars, we would not compare a 4x4 with a sport car just because they have the same size engine, we would not compare a C kite with a low aspect wave kite just because they have similar surface area. Obviously, they are for different purposes.
However, we do want to compare similar shape / style kites by their specifications. Simply because we cannot always demo them side by side to compare, and those who live out of the major cities cannot demo at all.
All what it takes is for the manufacturers to include HONESTY and OPENNESS into their marketing strategy.

Last few days I compared an 8m kite of a major brand to my 9 m Rev. They were very similar shape and, guess what, almost identical in size. The 8m wave kite of the same brand, on the other hand, was only marginally larger than my 6m RPM, again quite similar shape. Both called 8m by their manufacturer in spite of the fact that there was approximately 2m difference between the two. The designer obviously was / is aware of this, because the exact figure is shown on their design software. So there is absolutely no excuse for this. This is simply deceiving customers for marketing purposes. Or in one word: CHEATING.

Andrash said...

I am sure we have some geniuses amongst us (I wont start naming them just now), but I don't think it takes a genius to compare two similar shape kites by knowing

Surface area
Projected area
Aspect ratio

Just as with cars, we would not compare a 4x4 with a sport car just because they have the same size engine, we would not compare a C kite with a low aspect wave kite just because they have similar surface area. Obviously, they are for different purposes.
However, we do want to compare similar shape / style kites by their specifications. Simply because we cannot always demo them side by side to compare, and those who live out of the major cities cannot demo at all.
All what it takes is for the manufacturers to include HONESTY and OPENNESS into their marketing strategy.

Last few days I compared an 8m kite of a major brand to my 9 m Rev. They were very similar shape and, guess what, almost identical in size. The 8m wave kite of the same brand, on the other hand, was only marginally larger than my 6m RPM, again quite similar shape. Both called 8m by their manufacturer in spite of the fact that there was approximately 2m difference between the two. The designer obviously was / is aware of this, because the exact figure is shown on their design software. So there is absolutely no excuse for this. This is simply deceiving customers for marketing purposes. Or in one word: CHEATING.

I suspect the kite nerds that design the kites know exactly how big the kites are but the marketing dudes have other ideas - they probably read Seabreeze.

Andrash:
No Hype - Just Facts.
Cheers!

Hope it brings you much joy Andrash!!


Just looks like another bloody spreadsheet to me and thats the last thing I need.

seafever17 said...

Hope it brings you much joy Andrash!!


Just looks like another bloody spreadsheet to me and thats the last thing I need.

Hi Seafever, I deleted my previous post, because it was not very helpful.
I understand your aversion to spreadsheets, but this is the way things are organized these days. But, really, it is not that difficult. I know there are guys around way more qualified to explain these, so I am open to any correction, and learning. But now...
Let's say you want to replace the 9m kite in your quiver. Looking at the sheet, you see they have a 9m which is a genuine 9m. So they are not cheating, it's a good start. Then you have a look at the projected area. This is the part of the kite which is projected to the wind, and represent the row power of the kite. If it is similar to your existing kite, you know you can expect similar pull, unless something is really off. Then you see the aspect ratio. If it is lower than what you have now, then this kite may not jump as high, and perhaps gives you less pop, but it will be more stable, and if it turns fine, it will be better on the waves. On the other hand, if it is higher then what you have, then perhaps this kite will jump nicely, and high, but it would not be that stable and would not turn just as well on the waves. And now you know if you want to demo the kite or not.
Of course there are much much more parameters effecting the performance of the kite, and that's why it's worth to demo.
But when you don't have these info, and say you demo a 9m kite which is actually a 7m, you will be amazed how quick the kite is. But if you buy the kite, you may realize shortly after that when the wind drops under 18 knots, you need to go home, while you buddies with your old kite are still ripping.
Sorry if it was too long, and guys who know better correct me if it was not accurate.

AND ps......
about 5 years ago 2 of my mates bought new 12M kites of different brands. We all noticed an apparent big difference in size. Layed out together one 12M was significantly bigger in all directions than other other 12M and - guess what - the smaller kite delivered noticably more power than the bigger one.
Tested and agreed by numerous riders.
This size thing is nothing new - but not getting any less of a complication.

Just my last word on this thread... (have I said that already?)
This thread has served its purpose to bring awareness to the manipulation with the kite sizes by some manufacturers. Obviously, we cannot expect some brands to come out with the details now, and by that admit that they were misleading us for marketing purposes. I believe and hope though, that there will be more and more brands which provide the details with their kites (as they did in the past), and by that, we can quickly sort out which brands are cheating. Until then, just keep comparing, demoing and kiting... and if the conditions are like they were today, there is no reason to stop smiling........ perhaps the scotch helps a bit too.....

I think thats a great chart switch produce. I'm guessing the majority of kite companies believe the 'wind chart' is all the punters need to know. It surprises me the amount of major brand kite surf boards that only list a length and ignore all the other dimensions in advertising.