Blinkers?... Yeah right haha.
Best thing is, this time you are not only disagreeing with me and telling me "I need to open my mind"** but your hero 100 times world champ AH agrees with me to hahaha"
Nah I think they're called tickets.......... on yourself. Hah, hah

what i dont get it? ^^^ what are tickets? are you selling them for a donkey show?

"And hate to bag out Dre, but I watched an old kite DVD the other day, and all his passes were with kite 'at lunch'. Unfortunately thats how good moves start, looking pretty sloppy, learning the move, and the pass, then with time and practice dialling it in and making it better and adding the style."

fair comment but what you did there is compare old with new.. its like taking a mitsi evo 2 and comparing it with a evo 9 as in over time things get better more refined etc. what hadlow is showing there is that comp riding is not doing this refining at the moment as the level of riding is the same and what scores good vs what doesnt hasnt changed when it should have.

another point to make here is that comp riders shouldnt be "learning tricks" or throwing stuff they JUST learnt in comps, they should be throwing their more powered and refined tricks to show what they got down packed with more power and fluidity right?

and then again we are only addressing COMPETITION in this thread so you cant say there are some guys who are so paranoid about kite low that they throw down like sh!t instead of cloud dancing with technicality when there are more experienced cloud dancers that can throw down with a bit more power in the comp arena.. like you said apples and oranges. we can only draw and compare on proffessionals/ex competitors or current competitors for comparison in this debate.

Kite height is not the be all end all of life but it is a MAJOR contributor that has a great influence on how well a trick turns out, and that is why it is one of the things that really has to have emphasis put on during judging.

so lets use a mobe 5 to explain

low kite
1. need more speed and power to produce same level of pop as in kite high
2. when bar is dropped you dont have a parachute effect dampening the fall, instead you have more horizontal pull adding more consequence = good for showmanship aswell as showing they are risking their bodies to throw down.
3. without the upwards pull effect the trick has more flow start to finish and less jerky movements or stalls in the trick

High kite
1. less power and speed is needed for the pop
2. more time to pass because you have more float effect due to kite's upward pull
3. when bar is missed you get more of a parachute effect.
4. due to the pull tricks turn out more jerky and less fluid.

andyy said...

^^^^You can say whatever you want as long as you've got the moves to back it up.

I don't get it. So unless your PKRA champ your not allowed an opinion? Do you never criticise anyone that's better than you at anything?

you andy are a bag of D's

What you talking about? Define what aspect of Hadlow and Lenten you think we don't have?, the marketing and name?... The reason we don't have guys like that is because we don't have kids with rich parents that are willing to send them around the world all the time. We have some unreal riders, it's just that they aren't promoted, this sport isn't about how good you ride (for the most part) but who you know.
What about Andy yates? He is up there with the best freestylers in the world.
I would say we have the best waveriders in the world to.
Not to mention there are/ were alot of the best wakestyle riders in the world here as well... Cam Barker i'm pretty sure was the first to land a FS720 in Aus and maybe even the world.

I agree that WA is unreal and i'm suprised their isn't more good kiters comming from there.

As for expense, yes it may not be as expensive in the long run as Snowboarding but snowboarding is alot more famliy friendly and you dont have to wait for wind.
Skating is the best sport when it comes to simple cheap boardsport, all you need is a skatey and a park or some concrete, no waiting for wind or waves.
It's easy to see why more people don't kite.

cwamit said...


by any chance do some of you type with your eyes closed?

I think so.

jammin said...

If you guys re-read my first post, you'll see that I am agreeing with AH, and Charl, and hate to say it- but Rowdy too. I agree that kite-low powered tricks are harder than kite high moves. BUT only if they're the same move, I then go on to add a few variables which might alter the value of a trick in terms of difficulty etc...

Yes and that is what i didn't agree with.

jammin said...


My point about Dre was fairly obvious I thought, but I'll spell it out. He gets alot of cred from wakestyle fans for being the style-meister, but only a few short years ago he was doing his moves just like the dangle-kings you hate so much.

I think you will find it was longer than "a few" short years... Ten 4 was back in about 03 and the stuff he was pulling off in the homework section was pretty boss, nothing like "the dangle kings" of now.
Besides that fact he was the one who really progressed and pushed wakestyle back into the limelight with style and power, if you weren't so infatuated with the cloud climbers you would realise that is the reason he gets so much cred (along with his smooth as style)... and deservedly so.

jammin said...


My thoughts are that for trick progression, you need to stick the trick first. even if its slow, sloppy, high-kite, dangly cloud-dancing whatever. But once you have bagged the trick, the natural progression is to improve it, make it faster, smoother, more powered, get your kite lower and all those things that seperate just a landed trick, from a stylish one.

No doubt, so your saying all the tricks PKRA riders mostly do are "just landed ones"? PKRA (correct me if i'm wrong) should be in the second phase of your description... not doing crap like they just learnt it. They are the worlds best, Hadlow has even shown he can ride like described in your second stage, but gets failed everytime he does.
A bigger emphasis needs to be placed on scoring dangles lower, not as a slightly lesser of the actual trick its meant to be, which is about 100x harder.

jammin said...


This translates to modern competition, and you might not like it, but a move like a KL air passed 7 is gonna score higher than a straight mobe. You might consider it dangly, unstylish and cloud climbing, but the simple fact is- its harder to do.

Depends how low your kite is, but I would say yes it probably is harder. Why not just do every trick with a kiteloop then if its harder? I mean it will score more points wont it?.....

jammin said...


Give it a few years and those high passed not-so-smooth tricks will improve in style and power. Its progression and its already happening.

Dude the progression has happened... where have you been? under a rock? Hadlow has even shown you himself. Its possible to do mobe 7s and stuff with your kite low already. You know why you dont see them?... yep you guessed it because its actually hard to do, chances are your not going to land that in a comp, so why should the cheap dangle substitute score nearly as well?... It shouldn't, its nothing.

jammin said...


There are still alot of issues with judging a heat fairly, but that comes back to the myriad of variations that go into a move, again I think the trick should be looked at as a whole, not purely on the angle of the kite. And if kite angle is so damn important to you, then why even bother with kiting? just stick to wake boarding.

Because we like kiting and the freedom it can give us... Why do all you progression haters feel the need to tell someone everytime a conversation like this comes up "to go back to wakeboarding"? We dont tell you evertime you rabble on with your pro dangle crud "why dont you just go back to the clothesline where you can hang in the air and spin around as many times as you want all day".... do we.. oops guess I kinda just did haha.

jammin said...


If your power source when you're riding is so controllable and full of options (high, low, looped straight downwind etc) why not use it? Why fix hard out rules and limitations on yourself?

Because we are trying to push the sport in a legit direction. We aren't talking about all competitions and we aren't saying everyone has to ride like this. But for this sport to get taken seriously by other established board sports it's clear it has to move in this direction.

jammin said...


If we all did that and rode with our kites no higher than 45 degrees, the world would never have seen a Lenten megaloop, a Mark Shinn triple front varial transition, Tom Herbert runnig on water, and you'd never get to experience a 10 second flight off the top of a wave when the winds howling and you line up a big ramp when maxed out.
Kitings fun, drop the rules, lets see where freestyle can go!!

As i have said we are talking about ONE world tour, one competiton... Its hardly going to stop everyone in the world riding how they like is it... wake up.

I would have to say that was possibly the biggest load of pro-dangle nonsense i have read so far.

dave...... said...

"Nah I think they're called tickets.......... on yourself. Hah, hah"

"I don't get it... Do go on."

I could but I dont want to sh@t bash everyone with a different opinion to me......
Nah, I'll give......

OK, youngin' its a surfing term from the 80's that derives from frustrated semi-pro surfers with talent who derive their ego from a sport/hobby but cant make a living from it and therefore have subliminal issues as to what they are actually going to do with themselves so pump themselves up from putting others down. They sell raffle tickets of themselves due the inflated price of what the product is actually worth.

Lol I know what "selling tickets on yourself" means, but your sentence structure and quoting needed some work, I could hardly decipher it.

Im not putting anyone down, or pumping myself up... so unless you have misunderstood me or what "selling tickets on yourself" actually means I can't see how you think I am doing that... examples?
If you think I'm infact selling tickets on myself you just sold a whole roll on yourself haha.

Bwahahahahahaha, I'm sure you will get over it.

jammin said...

Rowdy, you're a d1ckhead. I try and write reasonable posts on the forum to contribute something positive to kiting. I appreciate you don't like my ideas, and thats ok, but cool your tone and hate a little.

In this thread alone you have called some international pro-riders spoilt rich kids, bagged out WA riding and generally flamed on anyone who has a different opinion to you.

If your intention really is to improve Australian kiting- and make it Legit, how bout leading from the front? actions speak louder than words.

Are you a sponsored rider? **** knows how that happens. Your riding really isn't that amazing, and you come across as a total knob when reading these forum pages. Not really a shining ambassador for your brand in my opinion.

I'm not gonna bother replying to any more of your sneered and aggressive arguements on this subject, because I know you will keep coming back with another comment, and it could go on forever, And I don't like being pulled down to these levels, makes me feel childish when all I wanted was to contribute to a thread that I found interesting.

Mate I think you need to take a good look in the mirror...
What happened?... After realising your arguments and ideas were so weak and flawed the only thing left to do was to try and make me out as a bad guy, and stoop so low as to call me names suck as "dickhead"?... really mature.

It's a forum... The same reason you post your ideas and points of view is the same reason i post mine, just because my ideas are different to yours doesn't mean I hate you, why would I? But when you post things such as your toatally uneducated comment about Dre, I feel oblieged to correct you. I think you need to start reading these things I write as crital perspectives and not personal judgements. Afterall, you are putting your point of view out for discussion... What do you expect? No one to question or correct you?

When did I call any pro riders spoilt rich kids? Why would that matter anyway? thats what alot of them are, correct me if I'm wrong.

When did I bag out WA riding? Show me? All i said was I'm suprised MORE good riders don't come from there... which is suprising.

I don't just flame anyone with a different opinion, but I will voice my opinion about subjects and posts that I think are stupid or not what I believe is true. Isn't this what you do on a forum? be pretty lame if everyone just agreed 100%.

I'm trying all i can to make Australian kiting more legit, I ride everytime I can, I help organise contests, I help build obstacles, I write for several mags on the subject... What more do you want me to do? I can voice my opinions on forums as well if I like.

Now you get personal and ask if I'm sponsored, and if I am you don't know why... and you tell me I'm nothing special... Geez getting pretty personal here... Imagine if I asked you these questions in order to back up your arguments. I wouldn't because I'm not that lame, but if you wan't to have a "your d!cks bigger than mine" wank off I'm sure we can post up videos of our riding and have the readers judge the winner.

I write what I feel, sometimes you gotta be harsh to be heard, It's just how it is and I think it's needed to provoke a change in this sport and it's worked pretty well so far I think.
Ive had tons of people thank me for helping them with gear options, and critiquing their style and helping make them a better wakestyle rider. I also help tons of older kiter mates down the beach with their equipment and fine tuning and I think if you asked nearly anyone I kite with what I'm like they would say I'm a friendly helpfull person.

Just because I'm passionate about pushing kiteboarding in the right direction doesn't mean I don't like other styles, and it doesn't mean I don't like everyone who doesn't ride that way... Which seems to be what you think. (I have no idea why because that is just totally unrealistic for anyone)

You are not going to reply to anymore arguments because I pointed out too many flaws in all your previous arguments...
You think my arguments are "sneered and agressive" have you read your post back at all?
You stooped way below my level already when you resorted to swearing at me and telling me I was a "****" rider, I never did that to anyone... you might as well keep posting you aren't going to look like anymore of a tool than you already do.

Sorry if I have hurt your feelings in anyway, but I think you need (i hate to say it but) a big cup of harden the f@ck up.