coreyb said...

All I see in those photos are a bunch of kiters on a near empty beach.

What You don't see kiters walking, landing with lines over peoples heads, riding amongst the swimmers, beginners struggling to keep their kites up in marginal conditions etc ------this is what I meant by denialism in my pulled post. I regret pulling that post now when one of the state's top wave kiters (Respect for that part Corey!!) thinks there is nothing wrong with all the above. How bad is that for publicity?

Denial is a common human trait, the mind's mechanism for blotting out painful/unpleasant stuff. Male autism, the difficulty to empathise with others, to see it from their perspective is also very common. So this is not an attack:

It's an appeal for a little more self awareness, boys...else we will lose access over time no doubt.

NOW...I think a lot problems with other beach users occur when us mad-keen kiters go out in marginal conditions. The lower the wind, the less control we have over our kites. There will always be other beach users out there when the weather is hot and the wind is light. This is a recipe for friction.

So I would like for WAKSA to consider proposing that -at busy mixed-use spots like Scarbs, Brighton, City Beach, Mullalloo- a voluntary ban on kiting in under 20knot wind conditions be imposed. No kiting unless its over 20k!

-It's not much fun in those conditions anyway
-Other beach users generally leave at 20k, so generally no invasion of personal safety zones
-Signage to such effect will keep noobs and touros from rigging up

I think this would be a much better solution than the recent 'win' we had at Mullaz: a feeble 400m kiting zone. Way small, easy to drift out of in light winds. Not discrediting WAKSAs hard work, I personally witnessed it at every public meeting, but the 'no kiting under 20' may lead to much better outcomes.

And those of you who must kite in 15knots...you'll just have to travel further afield.

"The time has come
To say fair's fair
To pay the rent
To pay our share..."
(Beds Are Burning - Midnight Oil)

um, if you can't fly a kite in anything over 13 knots then you are a sub standard kiter.

kitecrazzzy said...

um, if you can't fly a kite in anything over 13 knots then you are a sub standard kiter.

Sub standard!!What???

Mate I don't and never will own a kite that would get me going In 13knots!
How boring, Bo is right, anything under 20knots is kinda lame!!
Under 20 knts I'm either fishing or at the pub...
But rock on mate, I'm sure you above standard kiters have all the water to yourself in 13 kts

Bo said...

kitecrazzzy said...

um, if you can't fly a kite in anything over 13 knots then you are a sub standard kiter.

Sure, there are many ordinary kiters, not at your level.

However the world does not revolve around your elite clique. It consist of all sorts: sub-standard kiters, children, boogie boarders, housewives, horses even. We're talking about getting on with each other at popular beaches.

Well said, I don't think many kiters can grasp the concepts at work here; that is why the bans happen.

Nope i ride SB... Just like to be powered
It only goes green at 18knts
Pretty tAme riding under that

Thanks for not spitting the dummy people, and actually allowing this into the discussion. (BTW I havent been on a twinny for the past 2 seasons. Jimi Lewis Rad F or strapped surfboard, me)

richswing said...
these are substandard kiters that need to be educated.

In an ideal world, yes!. But we'd have to put up volunteer inspector crew 7 days a week to catch the loose canons. I'm not sure I'd have the stomach or time to 'educate' insecure, aggressive Euros (and locals!) on a daily basis...

richswing said...
[snip.....]Black or White without any grey in the middle

I hear you. But the reality is black and white. Kiters *have* now been banned form launching at North groyne. The general public is not happy with us! Remember these are some of the most crowded/popular beaches in Perth metro, when the wind is not nuking. Are we prepared to share the beach and compromise? And what's the best solution? Massive restrictive exclusion zones a la Mullaloo...or a voluntary refraining form kiting in less-than-ideal conditions? Just suggesting that WAKSA consider negotiating the avenue of least pain...biggest possible win for all stakeholders.

Dudes you have all got to step back, take a chill pill and just read back the neurotic stuff you are producing. My god what have we become! Licenses, agro, opinionated sledging, wow, this thread needs to end.

It has outlived it's usefulness and is just getting downright depressing and bordering on 'Jerry' Springer.

Please, whoever runs this forum, don't let it get hijacked by whining, pissed off people! (And yes I see the hypocrisy in my statement).

End it please. Let's revisit it in the near future, when we have calmed down.

and it continues..... good points though, but still it continues... i think we all know the illogical reasoning here or maybe we someone else to word the ridiculous north groyne contingency plan in another way. On it goes, please make it stop

richswing said...

I realize Hilly you are getting your stoke elsewhere but cast your mind back when you were kiting and rather think of a solution.

Rich

Still kite - well will when the knee recovers from the last effort. Snapped MCL and PCL bugger. Been kiting since just after I first saw it in 1999 at a windsurfing comp at Hookipa. Makes me laugh guys calling me a non kiter :-).

My only message was be proactive and self police but apparently I am under mining the very fabric of your right to kite. Feck grow up guys look outside the goldfish bowl and see what impact you on others who have been there longer and will complain to council. For example the old guys who fish at the drain and get swooped by everyone who goes past.

It is a great sport pity if we lost access. In your hands

Andrash said...

The battle for retaining beach access at City Beach hasn't been lost to my knowledge, in fact, it hasn't really been started. I am sure WAKSA is already working on the most appropriate approach. If anyone has some strategically workable idea, WAKSA crew asked for feedback at the start of this thread: email to waksa@waksa.org.au.

Historically, when an army could not unite before a battle, always lost the battle.
The opposition against kitesurfers is most likely reading this thread. Every negative post here, criticizing and blaming kitesurfers, reinforces their position.
Being emotionally intelligent or grown up may not relate to age......

Well done mate, well said and I would encourage those to take note. Unite in a calm, organised fashion, you guys will be much more effective. I do realise it is an emotional issue, when something you enjoy so much is being threatened by once again, rules and regulations, but it is better to work with those with the ultimate decision making power. It's not what you know, who you know and you treat who you know... so calm, intelligent, reasoned thought will win the day. Or you can keep ranting and you will lose.

There are many alternatives. Licensing is a bad idea. Just because you have a license doesn't mean you won't present as a hazard. Everyone makes mistakes or misjudges something.
Who would enforce licenses, who would manage the renewal etc. WAKSA are just volunteers don't forget.

My suggestion would be to go with this current council ruling and use the next 9 months to prepare submissions and get a lobby group together.

If we as a group can act responsibly, take it on the nose so to speak and prepare ourselves for battle over the next 9 months i think we have a much better chance of retaining the best downwinder in the metro.

I am more than willing to give up as much of my spare time as required to help.

The real issue is that we are being unfairly targeted.

Dogs will sometimes attack people, not all dog beaches are closed (the owner copes it and dog is put down)

Surfers will occasionaly colide within their group or inocent third party swimming with their family (ever looked at trigg point on a decent swell?). Once again, it doesn't automatically bans all surfers from accessing the ocean.

To my knowledge, kiters are an extremely low risk activity on par with joggers, boogie boarders, surfers.

Rather than enforce compulsory licensing and apologise for crimes not commited,WAKSA's role should be to chalenge those bans on the basis of actual facts (number of claims lodge with their public liability insurance compare to the amount of members) and reinforce the positive aspects (benefit to the economy, employment, tourist attractivness and of course the rescues).

I am not asking for any special treatment, only the right to practise my leasure with the same freedom than every other beach goers enjoy with their chosen activity.

Also since we are willing to respect and enforce rules to not disturb other users (flags...), and since we have gone with the trouble of creating a representative association (WAKSA), it would be greatly appreciated if any council about to implement decisions that will affect us directly could at least consult with WAKSA before bringing out the big guns

I think most kiters need to well and truly get over the 'we are being unfairly targeted' mentality.

We take up a lot of space and excluding boats/jetskis (that are registered and licenced) we are the most potentially hazardous craft on the water. Dogs are also required to be licenced. I don't think anyone is going to argue that boats, sailboats, jetskis and dogs need to be licenced.. so why are we so special?

Sebol said:
To my knowledge, kiters are an extremely low risk activity on par with joggers, boogie boarders, surfers.

That is a BIG stretch of the truth right there.
Surfers are the only hazard out of those three to others. They are required to stay out of flagged (and other) areas. The reason we see a lot of surfbaord related injuries is from shear numbers out there and proximity to other water users..

Sebol said:
I am not asking for any special treatment, only the right to practise my leasure with the same freedom than every other beach goers enjoy with their chosen activity.

Of course you are. Our kites require a 25m radius to be safe(ish). Name me another water user that has so much area devoted to what they are doing (sweeping downwind at a rate of knots too) and combined with the speed and power of a kite??

The bit sooo few kiters get is that OUR craft of leisure create fear and potential for real damage, to other water users, who want to just enjoy a dip with the kids on a hot day. Everyone in this town should be entitled to go to a public beach and not feel threatened just for taking a dip.

Until most kiters get that last point, any help with stemming regulations/restrictions is an absloute lost cause. Sadly I don't think a lot of kiters will ever get it.

We all see peanuts doing sh!t we think is ridiculous every session. We know how dangerous they are behaving. Well wake up coz everytime an 'in control' kiter buzzes within 10m of another water user, the happless water user's freckle clenches BIG TIME and they feel threatened, angry and like they are the victim of someone else's arrogance/carelessnes. And they are spot on.


Attempting to act the victim here is a joke. We are the ones who have been imposing our pursuits on swimmers, paddlers, fishos, surfers, beach walkers, dog owners, sand castle kids, surf clubs for years now, and in short everyone who isn't a kiter is kn fed up with our intrusions.[}:)]

Look I don't know what the answer is but honestly self regulation is a complete fantasy. It's time to wake up and find a future solution.

Sorry GetFunky but your argument are the exact thing that brings of this type of issue.

It is blown out of all proportion. Are you sure your not on the ban kites payroll?

As Sebol has said, the kites are in the sky. They are not a danger to other beach goers when under control. There are no dramas of people getting knocked around by kites on a daily basis as you say.

Most of the time there are no people on the beach.

I agree some people might freak out if they see kites nearby. That is far from legitimate danger. That is someone who doesnt know how safe they are.

coreyb said...

Sorry GetFunky but your argument are the exact thing that brings of this type of issue.

It is blown out of all proportion. Are you sure your not on the ban kites payroll?

As Sebol has said, the kites are in the sky. They are not a danger to other beach goers when under control.

Mate - you are probably a far better skilled kiter than most. Just like the sub-standard driver thread made plainly clear.. no-one thinks they are a sub-standard kiter. But there are plenty of hopeless cases out there every windy arvo. Just where do these kiters come from?? A parrallel universe?

coreyb said...
There are no dramas of people getting knocked around by kites on a daily basis as you say.

Which I did not say at all

coreyb said...
I agree some people might freak out if they see kites nearby. That is far from legitimate danger. That is someone who doesnt know how safe they are.

That is an average person trying to enjoy a public space and well aware of a large kite with sharp lines hanging off it. If they go to the beach regularly then they see the kites/lines end up in the water, and the kiters out of control every arvo.




Corey you can (again) don your foil hat and slag me off suggesting I have brought this on us. Simply not true.

Quite the opposite I have semi-regularly posted (and been flamed by self infatuated heros) imploring kiters in the Flozzer area to not to ignore other water users and act selfishly - which happens a lot - and is what has in reality lead to the situation we now have.

What have you done mate - posted lotsa glossy pics of yourself.. LOL.

But I guess that's another classic example of a lot of kiters not being able to look beyond themselves..

Sebol said:

Have you ever noticed that your 25 meter lines are pointing skyward?

The 25 meter argument is rubbish, I do not take more room than any windsurfer out there appart from launching when I am willing to comply with a designated launch area (unless if it is directly upwind of a man made breakwater wall).

If your kite sits at 12 then you must need more lessons. You actually telling me in the surf around Flozzer etc you aren't swinging your kite from side to side?? And when you bite it after a wave takes you out the kite stays 100% in control at all times? You guys are good and should get on board for the next Melb comedy festival.


Corey, you and Sebol (and unfoirtunately too many other 'experienced' kiters) are in a laughable state of denial as to the effect kites have and can have on those around them. Maybe one day when you need to think of your family's welfare and go to a kids beach only to have selfish numbnutz put them in peril -you may be able to look beyond your own bellybutton.

Dunno if you saw the idiot doing a downwinder body drag for 4kms a few weeks ago? He was fanging his kite from extreme left to right at warp speed and nearly fkd every kiter that came with 50m of him. He is the kind of fool you are unintentionally protecting.

Glad you agree about staying clear of others.. but it just does not happen.. and every arvo there are peanuts getting out there with bugger all idea of what they are doing with a kite.

So right now, some peantut can walk into a shop, buy a kite and stroll down to the beach, set up and attempt to self learn.. and that's ok? Of course it isn't, yet there is nothing to stop them doing so.

Don't even try to suggest that shops don't (sometimes) allow hard to move stock to walk out with a totally untrained noob (despite suggesting they take lessons). THAT would be stretching the truth. I have experienced these idiots 1st hand (and yes Corey - one was from your shop with a spanky new - but superceded - 10m C kite hot-launching - face planting/having punters run in all directions -right in front of Ob city). BTW - the 10m C was a 5th line designed kite - but sold with a brand new 4 line bar. Nice.

Same for 2nd hand market. There is currently nothing to stop a bona fide danger to themselves AND everything around them from buying a kit and ****** themselves, in a public space, half an hour later.


Now get this clear - I am not stating there should be bans OR that licencing is the ONLY way forward. I do think licencing has merit and I do believe self-policing simply isn't effective enough (despite admirable efforts by some). Again if you think self policing is enough, then you need to take your eye of the camera in your hand and look around a bit more.

What are you so afraid of? Licencing does not neccesarily mean a ban. It could possibly mean a clean out of the idiots and fools that do their best to fk it for everyone. Also proven hazardous tools can potentially have a little sit on the beach for some weeks.

Anyway - I doubt we are ever going to agree on this so we'll see how far we all get with the 'We are victims, don't take our bat n ball' philosophy.

Good luck with the living the fantasy.

See ya.