Restoring the ecological balance.. More Ferals

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barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
22 Jun 2011 6:17pm
doggie said...




I will say one thing barn, your ideas wont work. When was the last time a camel killed a lamb?
Do some research next time


So introducing the camels natural predator won't reduce camel numbers?

I don't really care about lambs. Camels cause major environmental destruction, same with water buffalo, deer and Pigs(who do eat lambs). But you don't care about controlling ferals that don't eat lambs?. Fark the environment?


Btw, how often do you go hunting doggie?, and what territory do you cover? do you shoot any big game?
Richiefish
Richiefish
QLD
5612 posts
QLD, 5612 posts
22 Jun 2011 8:24pm
This predator can kill camels.

SandS
SandS
VIC
5904 posts
VIC, 5904 posts
22 Jun 2011 9:27pm

apex preditor needed, ? give all the black fellas an ak47
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
23 Jun 2011 9:54am
barn said...


And we need a solution that does not require human participation.


Why? We are here, and are predators. One of the flaws in your theory is that it actually relies on human participation (ie; human introduction of a predatory species that would target foxes, camels, rabbits, cats etc.). Another flaw is that we humans are already the only natural (and, yes...believe it or not, we are a natural species) predator for those mentioned animals, it's just that we've evolved (or devolved) to a point where we don't hunt with our hands, we've made tools to do it for us. Good luck finding a better alternative to humans for keeping natural order. Unfortunately, we (as a whole) don't know how to do it properly, don't have time, resources, money...etc. which is required to live in human society. If you want to look at ferals multiplying at an alarming rate...look in a mirror! (not just you, but humans as a species), maybe we need to introduce a predator to wipe a few of us out?!

So the predator you're looking for to restore the balance is already here...it's humans! The issue is, which you've mentioned, is that we don't live off the land, we live in a economic world & most of us are out of touch with our environment (myself included), whereas if we lived a-la-natural (as the aborigines did hundreds of years ago), we would be more in-tune with these issues & spend the time keeping the balance, instead of working/playing & focusing on all the distractions around us.

Slightly off-topic (or maybe not), the introduction of strict gun licencing laws, the greenies movement, gun buyback in the 90's etc. has seen thousands of shooters (myself included) put owning a gun & licence in the 'too-hard-basket'. Imo, this has been the major impact on feral numbers, also the negative 'social stigma' attached with being a hunter (from sheltered/sympathetic souls like this thread's author) has nearly put a stop to weekend trips to the bush, shooting feral animals, pigs, foxes, camels etc.

So on one hand - the animal rights movement have got what they wanted - less guns, less killing of 'innocent' animals...on the other they're whinging about the rise of feral animals in the wild!
barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
23 Jun 2011 11:11am
I thought the buyback of guns was to stop repeat Port author massacres?. My only issue with using hunters as a control method is, it hasn't worked, people shoot camels, the government shoots camels, and camels are multiplying faster than we can afford to subtract. Multiply the same problem by every species of feral animal. It's not a viable solution.

You are mostly right about attitudes to hunters, I'm personally just skeptical that hunters have the environment in their best interests, even if their net impact is positive. Killing for sport is just so unsophisticated. It's a throwback to the days when a good old fashioned Tiger hunt was a gentlemanly thing to do.. I have no issues with innocent animals being shot, a dead animal gets over it pretty quickly. It's the balance of the ecosystem that I care about.

Maybe the ultra animal rights activists have given people opposed to shooting a bad image?

Maybe I've just been negatively influenced by hollywood?




This idea or 'rewilding' apex predators is covered in this BBC documentary which seems to be narrated by M from 007.. Called 'Predators in your back yard'.

It documents the rewinding of wolves to yellowstone, cougars to florida, bears to the Alps.. And also the returning of Wolves to the UK. At the end of the documentary a Biologist is arguing for the reintroduction of the Lion to south america to control the wild horses. It's a good documentary, if only for the footage of the bears being released. Some pretty funny reactions.

I think a lot of this can be applied to Australia.

stringer
stringer
WA
703 posts
WA, 703 posts
23 Jun 2011 11:18am
maybe we could live export the camels to the middle east in exchange for their oil, or women
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
23 Jun 2011 4:32pm
stringer said...

maybe we could live export the camels to the middle east

We already do - have been for years. We have the only disease-free camel stocks left. There is at least 1 abattoir slaughtering and selling camel meat, but Ozzies are too silly to eat it. All exported.
We live export water buffalo to Asia - have been for years. We have the only disease-free water buffalo stocks left. There is at least 1 abattoir slaughtering and selling water buffalo meat, but Ozzies are too silly to eat that too. All exported.
We export live bees to Europe and Nth America - have been for years. We have the only disease-free bee stocks (of the required variety) left. (Our honey bees are feral)
There is at least 1 abattoir butchering and selling kangaroo meat, but Ozzies are too silly to eat it. All exported to China.

There may be others that I don't know of. Anyone who'd eat feral pig however is nuts! They're riddled with parasites and diseases.

Btw, can anyone think of any natural predator (in known history) except for humans (well, Arabs at least ) for camels?



SomeOtherGuy
SomeOtherGuy
NSW
807 posts
NSW, 807 posts
23 Jun 2011 7:32pm
dinsdale said...

There is at least 1 abattoir butchering and selling kangaroo meat, but Ozzies are too silly to eat it. All exported to China.


News to me! I buy it at my local Woolies. Roo steaks = yum.
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
23 Jun 2011 7:34pm
SomeOtherGuy said...

dinsdale said...

There is at least 1 abattoir butchering and selling kangaroo meat, but Ozzies are too silly to eat it. All exported to China.

News to me! I buy it at my local Woolies. Roo steaks = yum.

No only, but also I believe there are boutique butchers selling buffalo and camel too (and other animals), but for all 3 there is very, very little of it for general sale here. One my friends from here, a professional hunter supplies most of the roo for human consumption in Perth and the sou'west, but it's a miniscule amount compared to the export amount. For the great unwashed, what I said is generally correct.

barn
barn
WA
2960 posts
WA, 2960 posts
23 Jun 2011 11:46pm
I agree that we should eat more roo and camel. We are so obsessed with eating european style foods.. Imagine if we all ate Roos, it's easy if you try, imagine no fences, above us only magpie??. Anyway I didn't know the answer to this..

dinsdale said...


Btw, can anyone think of any natural predator (in known history) except for humans (well, Arabs at least ) for camels?



I'll give it a shot.

'Known history' goes back a while, depending on who you talk to.. And it also varies depending on who you talk to. Ill take the geologists and Biologists idea of 'Known history'..

There isn't much info on natural predators of wild Dromedaries cause there are no wild populations left, except for ours.

From Wiki on the family Camelidae


Camelids are unusual in that their modern distribution is almost a mirror-image of their origin. Camelids first appeared very early in the evolution of the even-toed ungulates, around 45 million years ago during the middle Eocene, in present-day North America. Among the earliest camelids was the rabbit-sized Protylopus, which still had four toes on each foot. By the late Eocene around 35 million years ago, camelids such as Poebrotherium had lost the two lateral toes, and were about the size of a modern goat.[3][5]

The family diversified and prospered but remained confined to the North American continent until only about 2 or 3 million years ago, when representatives arrived in Asia, and (as part of the Great American Interchange that followed the formation of the Isthmus of Panama) South America.

The original camelids of North America remained common until the quite recent geological past, but then disappeared, possibly as a result of hunting or habitat alterations by the earliest human settlers, but more likely as a result of changing environmental conditions after the last Ice Age. Three species groups survived: the Dromedary of northern Africa and south-west Asia; the Bactrian Camel of central Asia; and the South American group, which has now diverged into a range of forms that are closely related but usually classified as four species: Llamas, Alpacas, Guanacos, and Vicu?as.


It goes on to say one species even evolved into a Giraffe Camel. We can conclude this animal held the record for the longest spit.


Anyway, Camelidae would have evolved alongside Sabretooths and Dire wolves.

But the most recent predators of our camel, as it lived in North Africa and SW Asia would have been, at an educated guess Lions, Wolves and definitely Tigers..

Wiki says until about 10,000 years ago the Lion was the most wide spread land mammal.. So they would be a likely predator. And the wolf lived all through asia so thats a another one.

The camel population is 1million and doubling every 9 years. Thats some crazy exponential growth.


---------

Also, on the subject of introduced species, the Thylacine was also introduced to Australia, Marsupials came from South America. I think that kind of puts into perspective the notion of animals 'belonging' in certain environments, nature doesn't care, just as long as everything is balanced. The mammals walked from South America, across Antarctica, and rocked up in Australia. Humans aren't the only introducers of pests..

What did the South American Marsupials look like??? check out the Marsupial version of the Sabretooth cat, the Thylacosmilus. Convergent evolution ftw..



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thylacosmilus

Isn't that more interesting that the story of Noah Ark? I would go to Sunday school if we learn't this...
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
24 Jun 2011 8:36am
(.).)
felixdcat
felixdcat
WA
3519 posts
WA, 3519 posts
24 Jun 2011 9:26am
SandS said...


apex preditor needed, ? give all the black fellas an ak47


and a carton of VB
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
24 Jun 2011 1:17pm
felixdcat said...

SandS said...


apex preditor needed, ? give all the black fellas an ak47


and a carton of VB



Hmmmmm...although my comment wasn't race-specific - great minds think alike (some might just think faster than others?)

Sailhack said...

Easy fix - we give 2-legged ferals guns & copious amounts of goon & Jimbeam...drop them out in the bush...they'll clean up a few feral animals & I reckon they'll lower the 2-legged feral population as well!
FlySurfer
FlySurfer
NSW
4460 posts
NSW, 4460 posts
25 Jun 2011 4:12pm
SomeOtherGuy said...

dinsdale said...

There is at least 1 abattoir butchering and selling kangaroo meat, but Ozzies are too silly to eat it. All exported to China.


News to me! I buy it at my local Woolies. Roo steaks = yum.

I like Roo.
Roo = $19.85 a kg... Macromeats... mostly exported to Russia.
Sheep = $13 - $45 kg.
Cow = $10 - $37 kg
Pig = $6 - $25
And Roo is never on special.
Haven't seen any Camel meat... but I'd give it a go.

Anyway I'm totally against culling of any animals, their just minding their own business... what about the billions of feral humans?

One day we'll look back on these days and marvel how ignorant and violent we were to the other inhabitants of Earth... like we do now about the treatment of Aborigines.



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