NBN v's Mobile Network

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Simondo
Simondo
VIC
8025 posts
VIC, 8025 posts
12 Aug 2013 7:19pm
Had trouble today uploading onto Seabreeze, woth photos from the mobile phone...

On Home Broadband WiFi;
1) Tried to upload 22 photos in 1 hit... Seemed to work, 20 minutes in, at the end, seemed to stop...
2) Tried doing just 5 photos or so... didn't complete the task...
3) Tried just 1 photo, still didn't work, but took 30 seconds to upload...

Took the dog for a 10 minute walk, hooked up with the lovely LTE 4G Network;
4) Tried just 1 photo... uploaded in about 3 seconds... then uploaded other pics, plus picture batches... Uploaded in 4 large photos (from iPhone5) in about 12 seconds via LTE/4G...


Motto of the Story - LTE/4G Mobile Network KICKS ARSE over Home Broadband!!
- and -
Future 5G & 6G (etc... yet to be invented), will make a mockery of the NBN! Mark my words!
- and -
Wireless is the future, not Hardwired NBN... (PS - You can quote me on that one! )

TheWolf
TheWolf
SA
247 posts
SA, 247 posts
12 Aug 2013 9:17pm
Simondo said..

Had trouble today uploading onto Seabreeze, woth photos from the mobile phone...

On Home Broadband WiFi;
1) Tried to upload 22 photos in 1 hit... Seemed to work, 20 minutes in, at the end, seemed to stop...
2) Tried doing just 5 photos or so... didn't complete the task...
3) Tried just 1 photo, still didn't work, but took 30 seconds to upload...

Welcome to the failing copper network. If Abbott gets in, get used to it.


Motto of the Story - LTE/4G Mobile Network KICKS ARSE over Home Broadband!!

Until someone builds a structure or grows a tree inbetween you and the tower.
Or anyone else wants to use it. 4G is fast because few people are connected. Wait untill it catches on

Future 5G & 6G (etc... yet to be invented), will make a mockery of the NBN! Mark my words!

And Physics, since they will need to invent a medium faster than light to beat fibre.....


d1
d1
WA
304 posts
d1 d1
WA, 304 posts
12 Aug 2013 9:53pm
Simondo said..
Motto of the Story - LTE/4G Mobile Network KICKS ARSE over Home Broadband!!
- and -
Future 5G & 6G (etc... yet to be invented), will make a mockery of the NBN! Mark my words!
- and -
Wireless is the future, not Hardwired NBN... (PS - You can quote me on that one! )


Look, the capacity of your LTE cell is indeed just over 90 Mbps (for some networks), and one may even experience this throughput if the following conditions are met:
* you are in the boresight of the sector antenna, and close to it (RSRP is high)
* you are the only user on the cell (PRB occupancy is low)
* the other sectors of the same site are empty (RSRQ is high and ICIC is not required)

So, enjoy it while you are one of the few active LTE users on your site.

As for 5G and 6G - there is this nasty thing called "Shannon's Limit" which pretty much dooms wireless for as long as we live in this universe with its crazy and occassionally incomprehensible laws of physics.
Unhook3d
Unhook3d
WA
467 posts
WA, 467 posts
12 Aug 2013 10:07pm
These two guys are on the money. However I hear ya. My ****ty copper connection 5000kays from the exchange is a gazillion times slower than my phone.
Turn my wifi off to watch videos. Go figure.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
12 Aug 2013 10:10pm
I went to start my car the other day to drive to the shops. The battery was flat and it wouldn't start, so I had to walk. I only live 10 minutes walk away from the shops, and I got there easily. It was a pleasant day.

Walking kicks arse! The car is doomed! No one will ever need a car, ever!

boofta
boofta
NSW
179 posts
NSW, 179 posts
13 Aug 2013 9:17am
After the real bill comes in for the NBN, you high tech futurists will be blown away by the actual cost.
Who is going to pay for this modern miracle, its not just the subscription cost , someone has to pay
for the actual fibre. Don't worry its so fast all your jobs will be able to be done in India.
You can relax at home downloading real time movies, then watch them on your large screen
stimulus provided TV's. Money does not grow on trees or on NBN's
The real question my deluded Labor voters is, how logic is so difficult for you to grasp.
jusavina
jusavina
QLD
1505 posts
QLD, 1505 posts
13 Aug 2013 9:24am
FormulaNova said..

I went to start my car the other day to drive to the shops. The battery was flat and it wouldn't start, so I had to walk. I only live 10 minutes walk away from the shops, and I got there easily. It was a pleasant day.

Walking kicks arse! The car is doomed! No one will ever need a car, ever!



Imagine if you had a bike!
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
13 Aug 2013 9:42am
Ever heard of ADSL2? I wasn't able to watch anything live on our home pc (what, with about 4 tech items in the house connected to our wifi - 2 phones, 1 tablet, 1 lappy, kid's ipod) and we kept going over our limit - so questioned about getting an upgrade. Extra $5 per month, same modem (ADSL2 wifi), 5x the download capacity on our previous plan & no delays.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
13 Aug 2013 8:07am
boofta said..

After the real bill comes in for the NBN, you high tech futurists will be blown away by the actual cost.
Who is going to pay for this modern miracle, its not just the subscription cost , someone has to pay
for the actual fibre. Don't worry its so fast all your jobs will be able to be done in India.
You can relax at home downloading real time movies, then watch them on your large screen
stimulus provided TV's. Money does not grow on trees or on NBN's
The real question my deluded Labor voters is, how logic is so difficult for you to grasp.



Yeah, we don't need roads, schools, or airports either. Lets just sit back and hope we can keep things rolling along with yesterday's infrastructure.

Unless we are running fibre to houses in India, the NBN is not going to affect that. It may even make it more cost effective to do some roles more cheaply in Australia because they can be done in cheaper places to live.

I guess it would be simpler if we didn't stimulate the economy. By now we could all be sitting around knowing that it could only get better.

P.S. your last sentence/"question" doesn't make any sense.

evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
14 Aug 2013 4:53pm
boofta said..

After the real bill comes in for the NBN, you high tech futurists will be blown away by the actual cost.
Who is going to pay for this modern miracle, its not just the subscription cost , someone has to pay
for the actual fibre. Don't worry its so fast all your jobs will be able to be done in India.
You can relax at home downloading real time movies, then watch them on your large screen
stimulus provided TV's. Money does not grow on trees or on NBN's
The real question my deluded Labor voters is, how logic is so difficult for you to grasp.


It's a good question that has been answered many, many times over.


www.abc.net.au/news/2010-08-20/nbn-laid-bare/953288

...

Conclusion

People say that Sydney's Harbour Bridge took some 60 years to pay for itself. They say that as a bad thing. First off, it did pay for itself. Secondly, it's directly responsible for the growth of the North Sydney business district - one of the largest economic centres in the country. The money that's generated dwarves any cost associated with building the bridge. One could also make the point that the Harbour Bridge's scale was so magnificent that it drew attention from the entire planet. All of these analogies are applicable to the NBN. The tech community is adamant that the economic benefits of having this infrastructure will dwarf the cost. You either believe them or the Coalition saying that it will be a white elephant.

The pros and cons go on and on and on and many have been left out here. But the key points will ultimately be viewed as good or bad depending on the individual:

a) Australia having the best broadband infrastructure in the Western world during the age of the internet will either put it in a leading global economic position or be a total waste of time and money.

b) The NBN will probably cost more than expected and likely take years longer to complete than the Government has stated. Is this a good enough reason not to build it?

c) The NBN can be sold for a not insubstantial sum that will cover most costs or be a worthless white elephant that no-one will want to buy or use.

d) The NBN infrastructure will enable all sorts of exciting media distribution possibilities, small business opportunities, health care improvements, environmental benefits, education benefits, social benefits or be a worthless white elephant.

You've got to be pretty negative to presume the worst case at every level of these discussions. All investment carries risk. If you still can't imagine any benefits that the NBN might bring and you think that a billion dollars a year to provide the country with a future-proof, world class internet infrastructure that will boost the economy isn't worth paying, then the technology element of your vote must surely be against the NBN, and that means for the Coalition.

It's impossible to be completely bipartisan when it comes to the NBN. There are so many factors that leaving any out (which is inevitable) makes one biased. Most factors rely on guessing future costs and benefits which is determined by personal point of view. I'm excited by the promise of the NBN. I hope you are too. Investing in infrastructure at the time of a mining boom [article is from 2010] is something I personally believe in and if we don't do it now, we'll have to do it some other time - probably when we're playing catch-up. If you are against it, be against it for the right reasons.

www.abc.net.au/news/2010-08-20/nbn-laid-bare/953288


And yes. Anyone that understands the basics of Data Communications can affirm that nothing is faster than light. Fibre To The Home (FTTH) is the absolute best way to do this. Light is fast. Very fast. The 100mbps promise is only a starting speed, similar to the old 28k modems. The technology at each end gets upgraded. The fibre/light can't go any faster in this universe.

Don't let the coalition talk you into saving a dollar and paying twice
WA71
WA71
WA
1382 posts
WA, 1382 posts
14 Aug 2013 2:57pm
Unhook3d said..
These two guys are on the money. However I hear ya. My ****ty copper connection 5000kays from the exchange is a gazillion times slower than my phone.

Turn my wifi off to watch videos. Go figure.


+1
d1
d1
WA
304 posts
d1 d1
WA, 304 posts
14 Aug 2013 3:24pm
evlPanda said..
And yes. Anyone that understands the basics of Data Communications can affirm that nothing is faster than light. Fibre To The Home (FTTH) is the absolute best way to do this. Light is fast. Very fast. The 100mbps promise is only a starting speed, similar to the old 28k modems. The technology at each end gets upgraded. The fibre/light can't go any faster in this universe.


Erm, Panda... Are you actually saying that copper and wireless are inferior to fibre, because the electromagnetic waves in twisted-pair copper and the photons in wireless travel at speeds that are much slower (for any practical purpose) than the speed of light? Or did you just mean that the NBN signals will travel faster than carrier pigeons or a chain of semaphores?
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
14 Aug 2013 6:14pm
That's a great question.
DNSDC
DNSDC
NSW
26 posts
NSW, 26 posts
14 Aug 2013 6:38pm
d1 said..

evlPanda said..
And yes. Anyone that understands the basics of Data Communications can affirm that nothing is faster than light. Fibre To The Home (FTTH) is the absolute best way to do this. Light is fast. Very fast. The 100mbps promise is only a starting speed, similar to the old 28k modems. The technology at each end gets upgraded. The fibre/light can't go any faster in this universe.


Erm, Panda... Are you actually saying that copper and wireless are inferior to fibre, because the electromagnetic waves in twisted-pair copper and the photons in wireless travel at speeds that are much slower (for any practical purpose) than the speed of light? Or did you just mean that the NBN signals will travel faster than carrier pigeons or a chain of semaphores?


Don't confuse the speed of electrons or radio waves with data speed. You still need the ones and zeros coming down the wire or through the air. Likewise, the providers will try to confuse you with megabits per second verses megabytes per second. Twenty years ago, I was installing fibre for the Telecom backbone from Brissie to Melbourne. Each bundle can carry hundreds of fibres, each fibre had a bandwidth of 13 Gigabytes. This can be basically seen as the fastest speed one user can operate at( if your modem can read and write at this speed) if you are sharing the bandwidth with others, your speed slows down.
Years ago I was stoked to get 3.2 kilobits per second, today I'm connected at 24 megabits per second. Tomorrow I might be connected at 100 megabits per second. Next year maybe one gigabits!
Most of the long runs of fibre are done, even across the ocean to the USA. It's just the little bit at the end that needs to be done from the exchange to your house. We are pushing the limit of data speed via copper to just about its absolute limit. Ever notice how it slows down when it rains?
Fibre is the future, finish the network we started twenty years ago before the government privatised one of the best telcos in the world.
DNSDC
DNSDC
NSW
26 posts
NSW, 26 posts
14 Aug 2013 7:07pm
Just did some more reading! The fastest data speed through one fibre currently stands at 26 terabits per second over 50 kilometres. Fastest through 12 cores currently is 1.05 Petabits over 52.4 kilometres. It will be many years until we reach the limit over fibre.
I've climbed the poles and dug out the old pits, there are still old twisted copper that is 50 years and older out there that they charge you $29 a month for. Copper costs more than fibre buy, the same to install.
I work with high speed wireless networks all the time. Sometimes we slow the connection speeds down as we see too many dropped packets.
Wireless systems are great but the more users you connect, the slower it gets. You can only pump so much crap through the air before it chokes up.
laurie
laurie
SA
3889 posts
SA, 3889 posts
14 Aug 2013 7:01pm
My understanding of the signal path is this:

adsl: You -> Copper Phone Line -> Exchange ... to "internet"

4g: You -> Mobile Tower -> Fibre -> Exchange ... to "internet"

NBN: You -> Fibre -> Exchange ... to "internet"

Is it correct that the phone towers require NBN/Fibre to achieve their speeds outside metro areas?


More internet speed/more government speeding .. I'd suggest similar to more roads/more government spending.

Both create benefits and have huge costs in creating & maintaining.
Both are only available to people who can afford to travel on them.
Both present opportunities to do new things & do old things anew.
Both will bring massive changes to society.
Simondo
Simondo
VIC
8025 posts
VIC, 8025 posts
14 Aug 2013 9:15pm
Thanks Laurie & guys, for the input!
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
14 Aug 2013 9:10pm


Retzy
Retzy
VIC
130 posts
VIC, 130 posts
15 Aug 2013 6:08pm
FormulaNova said..

I went to start my car the other day to drive to the shops. The battery was flat and it wouldn't start, so I had to walk. I only live 10 minutes walk away from the shops, and I got there easily. It was a pleasant day.

Walking kicks arse! The car is doomed! No one will ever need a car, ever!



This.
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
15 Aug 2013 6:50pm
laurie said..
More internet speed/more government speeding .. I'd suggest similar to more roads/more government spending.

Both create benefits and have huge costs in creating & maintaining.
Both are only available to people who can afford to travel on them.
Both present opportunities to do new things & do old things anew.
Both will bring massive changes to society.


But the average road user never drives a truck from Sydney to Melbourne. They just do little runs to the school and the shops.
Why do we need a national highway system at all?
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23648 posts
WA, 23648 posts
15 Aug 2013 6:31pm
As much as I criticise NBN - try living in a town like mine, where you have one cell and use 3G for internet (wireless modem on PC, or using smart phone, whatever)

All good until population goes from 1000 to 10,000 for Christmas, Easter, (and every other excuse aussies use to have 3 days off work and get pissed.)
The internet becomes unusable. Cos losers on holiday still need to spend half the day looking at Facebook or something even when on holidays and the network just gets overloaded big time.
Then lightning fks it, power failures over 6hrs kill it cos the cell repeater dies, etc etc.
Give me a copper wire, fibre, spaghetti, I don't care but give me a wired connection to my house any day.

dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
15 Aug 2013 6:41pm
All this talk of "light speed" Tx is irrelevant. For a start electricity travels at near warp through copper. It's what happens at each end that counts. Dedicated Cu systems have been doing Gbit speeds for years. It's pretty much the standard for ethernet right now. Whilst I agree completely that fibre will be a better system, the question is, "How much better?" The cost will be several times more than Cu, and we already know that a sizable percentage of of the population won't see more than a tiny part of the benefit. Many won't be on fibre anyhow, but on terrestrial wireless or satellite, and don't try to tell me that either of those are satisfactory. I live in rural WA where I can't get any wired internet at all. Terrestrial wireless and satellite are absolutely hopeless - I've been there and done that!! At the mo I'm on 3g internet. How many of you spend $60.00/month for 8Gig download limit and think it's great, simply because it works?

Infrastructure like this will always be expensive in Oz because of the distances involved for a very limited user/tax base. It's all very well waxing and fawning over what places like Sth Korea have, but anyone could afford it with that population density. It's high time we learnt to live within our means.
NewScotty
NewScotty
2350 posts
2350 posts
15 Aug 2013 7:09pm
We just signed up to new plan.
We get 500gb for $99 with phone (home office line).
We no longer have a home phone.
Live in Sydney.
Not sure how the hell we could use 500gb as last plan was 20gb and we only went over the limit twice and paid through the nose.
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
15 Aug 2013 9:55pm
Maybe the cost could be offset by recycling the copper wire - we all know how exxy that stuff is!
Carantoc
Carantoc
WA
7269 posts
WA, 7269 posts
15 Aug 2013 8:06pm
dinsdale said..

All this talk of "light speed" Tx is irrelevant. For a start electricity travels at near warp through copper. It's what happens at each end that counts. Dedicated Cu systems have been doing Gbit speeds for years. It's pretty much the standard for ethernet right now. Whilst I agree completely that fibre will be a better system, the question is, "How much better?" The cost will be several times more than Cu, and we already know that a sizable percentage of of the population won't see more than a tiny part of the benefit. Many won't be on fibre anyhow, but on terrestrial wireless or satellite, and don't try to tell me that either of those are satisfactory. I live in rural WA where I can't get any wired internet at all. Terrestrial wireless and satellite are absolutely hopeless - I've been there and done that!! At the mo I'm on 3g internet. How many of you spend $60.00/month for 8Gig download limit and think it's great, simply because it works?

Infrastructure like this will always be expensive in Oz because of the distances involved for a very limited user/tax base. It's all very well waxing and fawning over what places like Sth Korea have, but anyone could afford it with that population density. It's high time we learnt to live within our means.


I think I am with dinsdale on this one.

Do we really need fibre to every home, right now, whether the home will use it or not, at the public expense.

It seems a great idea, I just query the 'every home' bit.

Every exchange yes, every hosptial yes, everybody who wants it, OK. Everybody, ? not so sure.

I am not suggesting fibre to every node, that just seems stoopid, I am just suggesting an upgrade to fibre when it makes commercial sense to that particular property.

As for the roads and bridges analogy I see it more like :

do we need a decent road network everywhere : yes
do we need a dual lane highway from Sydney to Brisbane : yes
do we need an upgrade to the highway running into the Fremantle freight terminal : yes
do we need a dual lane highway to everybodies front door, whether they have a car or not : ? yes, but not for $36 billion of public money

do we need the sydney harbour bridge : yes
do we need a six lane single span iconic bridge over every watercourse on the Gibb River Road, the Canning Stock Route and every back road west of Nimbin : yes, but not for $36 billion of public money

Fibre anywhere it makes sense, not fibre everywhere at any cents
harry potter
harry potter
VIC
2777 posts
VIC, 2777 posts
15 Aug 2013 10:17pm
^^^^ this
dirtyharry
dirtyharry
WA
444 posts
WA, 444 posts
15 Aug 2013 8:26pm
harry potter said..

^^^^ this


^^^ yep, me too.
mathew
mathew
QLD
2167 posts
QLD, 2167 posts
15 Aug 2013 11:07pm
laurie said..

My understanding of the signal path is this:

adsl: You -> Copper Phone Line -> Exchange ... to "internet"

4g: You -> Mobile Tower -> Fibre -> Exchange ... to "internet"

NBN: You -> Fibre -> Exchange ... to "internet"



except that it isn't like that at all... it is more like:

adsl: you -> copper -> street cabinet (jumper) -> copper -> suburb cabinet (electrical) -> copper -> exchange (jumper) -> routers -> internet

4g: 1000 x you -> mutli-path reflections, buildings, fading -> tower -> fibre -> exchange (protocol router) -> routers -> internet

NBN: you -> fibre splice -> routers -> internet

...in other words, your fibre-modem in your house, effectively connects directly to the core-router, ie: you can see the light coming out the other end.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23648 posts
WA, 23648 posts
15 Aug 2013 9:11pm
mathew said..
laurie said..



My understanding of the signal path is this:



adsl: You -> Copper Phone Line -> Exchange ... to "internet"



4g: You -> Mobile Tower -> Fibre -> Exchange ... to "internet"



NBN: You -> Fibre -> Exchange ... to "internet"



except that it isn't like that at all... it is more like:

adsl: you -> copper -> street cabinet (jumper) -> copper -> suburb cabinet (electrical) -> copper -> exchange (jumper) -> routers -> internet

4g: 1000 x you -> mutli-path reflections, buildings, fading -> tower -> fibre -> exchange (protocol router) -> routers -> internet

NBN: you -> fibre splice -> routers -> internet

...in other words, your fibre-modem in your house, effectively connects directly to the core-router, ie: you can see the light coming out the other end.


You can see light come out of it? That must be exciting to the propellorheads.

and NBN is

YOU PAY -> fibre - YOU PAY - > gee whizz thingy ..... and geeks get a hard-on cos they can all play online games against kids in Mongolia more effectively..

meanwhile the 1% of businesses who genuinely need it, make 1% more profit
Phew. That is worth it. Let's tell the homeless, the oldies needing a hip replacement and my kid whose classroom floods EVERY time it rains, that the internet will save them. LOL

MDSXR6T
MDSXR6T
WA
1019 posts
WA, 1019 posts
15 Aug 2013 9:28pm
dinsdale said..Whilst I agree completely that fibre will be a better system, the question is, "How much better?"


It's far better. I have had telstra cable, wireless, adsl2 and fibre and the fibre is like chalk and cheese compared to the others. It's exactly like comparing ADSL to dialup. I have a PS3, 2 phones and an ipad connected wireless and stuff like lag on PS3 isn't an issue. Makes me pretty handy in Battlefield 3

I'm on a 50/20Mbps connection with 200GB for $74.95pm with iinet. There fibre / nbn service guys are excellent. For an extra $4 i can go to a 100/40Mbps connection but i don't see any real point.

I'm capped at the moment and I'm still at 11Mbps but upload is less than 1Mbps

Fibre / NBN is a good thing for this country but i also think it's worth upgrading everything else that's been poorly designed in Australia.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23648 posts
WA, 23648 posts
15 Aug 2013 10:34pm
MDSXR6T said..
dinsdale said..Whilst I agree completely that fibre will be a better system, the question is, "How much better?"


It's far better. lag on PS3 isn't an issue. Makes me pretty handy in Battlefield 3.............. ............................

Fibre / NBN is a good thing for this country .................


and therein lies my argument - WHY?
Most people think of useless sh!t like that. In fact most pro NBN arguments online include things like that.

Seriously - I am yet to see how many businesses will make more money from fast internet?
All we hear is "oooh an architect could send 2gig files around at light speed" - yeah but it took him 2mths to draw it. The 20min saving in SEND time is irrelevant.
Again, it is mostly propellorheads getting excited about how they can undertake their HOBBY better
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