Just on this topic, I just have to say, right at this moment I feel pretty happy knowing that I live in a country that is doing pretty well, and if for some reason I started to do it tough, that I would still have food, shelter, and free access to health care.

FormulaNova said...

Mobydisc said...

That article is not totally true. There are many homeless people in Australia. Absolute poverty exists in Australia. I live in a fairly prosperous part of Sydney, on the upper north shore. In this area there is a large number of homeless people who surviving in surrounding bushland. A local church runs a mobile kitchen for homeless people every Friday night and they get large numbers of people around for a decent meal. Volunteers say the numbers they feed are increasing dramatically. A large number of the homeless are there because of a lack of money.

Despite the tens of billions of dollars that are redistributed, many Australians suffer from absolute poverty. Governments has largely given up on looking after these people, many of whom suffer from mental illness. Despite giving up, the workers and entrepreneurs keep getting taxed.

Because these people are marginal and don't have a voice, they are looked over, feared and despised all the time.

The article should also ask whether some Australians have become more prosperous and have more gadgets to keep them entertained despite the state, not because of it.

Sure you can't legislate everyone into prosperity but there are many examples of legislating industries and people into poverty. There are also examples of freeing up people to do the deal and work into prosperity.

MobyD, I strongly believe that the homeless people you are talking about have mental health problems first, not financial problems, other than those caused by their condition. Their situation is not caused by lack of money.

If you don't believe me, go have a chat with one. I suspect you would find out its not about money.

Having said that, I do not know this first hand, but I cannot see how a person in Australian society would not be able to find housing if they have access to social security.

Who really lives in absolute poverty in Australia?

Another factor would be that there is no rental (public or private) available (in WA anyway)! We are lucky (not) to have scored CHOGM 2011 for the glory of little king Barnett (he will meet queen Lizzi wow) We have a lot of homeless peeps living around the convention centre and they will be rounded and sent somewhere??? During the big circus, can't show the world that we are not the lucky country for all! But in another hand we are spending $ 2500.00 a day to accommodate a few illegal migrants in holiday chalets just around the corner in Jandakot ??? WTF???? Are we crazy??? Apparently the chalets have been booked for one year in advance that is $900,000.00 for the year! That money would go a long way to help a few OZ's mentally disturbed (maybe?) homeless!
Charity well organized starts at home!

evlPanda said...

FormulaNova said...
The guy that sold the plasma TVs, then decides to add an extra storey to his house, or to buy a new car, or to spend the extra cash at his local. This in turn stimulates someone else's business. Generally people will spend more and this in turn keeps more people employed, and more people spending.

If someone took the stimulus cheque and banked it, and didn't spend an extra cent, then you are right, there is no direct nett benefit to the economy. Then again, it might have resulted in a more positive feeling of security, and those people that saved it eventually spent more than they otherwise would.

Are you saying when I'm overpowered I should not sheet out? But that defies common sense!

(.).)

Back to the original question - I think the seldom stated but real reason we have welfare is to stop poor people pinching our tvs.

SomeOtherGuy said...

cisco said...

If it was a success, I for one certainly do not understand how it was.

Maybe if you spent less time reading that right wing baptist crap and more time actually educating yourself you would.

Shoot you get prickly when someone dares to suggest that Socialism may not be the ideal cradle for human growth and development.

So what is your take on Thomas Jefferson?? Just another right wing fanatic I suppose.


THOMAS JEFFERSON

At 5, began studying under his cousin's tutor.

At 9, studied Latin, Greek and French.

At 14, studied classical literature and additional languages.

At 16, entered the College of William and Mary.

At 19, studied Law for 5 years starting under George Wythe.

At 23, started his own law practice.

At 25, was elected to the Virginia House of Burgesses.

At 31, wrote the widely circulated "Summary View of the
Rights of British America" and retired from his law practice.

At 32, was a Delegate to the Second Continental Congress.

At 33, wrote the Declaration of Independence ..

At 33, took three years to revise Virginia 's legal code
and wrote a Public Education bill and a statute for Religious Freedom.

At 36, was elected the second Governor of Virginia
succeeding Patrick Henry.

At 40, served in Congress for two years.

At 41, was the American minister to France and negotiated
commercial treaties with European nations along with Ben
Franklin and John Adams.

At 46, served as the first Secretary of State under
George Washington.

At 53, served as Vice President and was elected president
of the American Philosophical Society.

At 55, drafted the Kentucky Resolutions and became the
active head of Republican Party.

At 57, was elected the third president of the United States ..

At 60, obtained the Louisiana Purchase doubling the nation's
size.

At 61, was elected to a second term as President.

At 65, retired to Monticello ..

At 80, helped President Monroe shape the Monroe Doctrine.

At 81, almost single-handedly created the University of
Virginia and served as its first president.

At 83, died on the 50th anniversary of the Signing of the
Declaration of Independence .

John F. Kennedy held a dinner in the white House for a group of
the brightest minds in the nation at that time. He made this
statement: "This is perhaps the assembly of the most intelligence ever
to gather at one time in the White House with the exception of when
Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe,
we shall become as corrupt as Europe .
Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it
goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of
the world.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the
government from wasting the labours of the people under the pretence
of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government
results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep
and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against
tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of
ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our
liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow
private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by
inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will
grow up around the banks will deprive
the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on
the continent their fathers conquered.

..........................................................................................................


The last one is where we are at.

You suggest that handing out money, willy nilly, and running up the National Debt is a good idea.

Debt by definition is something that has to be repaid, so who do you think is going to have to repay this huge debt.

You are certainly not worried about it as by your own admission you do not PLAN to be around that long.

One might assume you do not have children, or if you do, you do not give a rat's arse about them or their future.

cisco said...

...(lots of irrelevant stuff) ...

One might assume you do not have children, or if you do, you do not give a rat's arse about them or their future.

HAH!

Given that I talked about my son in that same post you're quoting, I can see you don't pay much attention to what I say. In which case, there's not much point going on about Jefferson living off other people or the causes of the Great Depression.

If you've got this far... try Wiki! You could learn that your issue with debt was a major cause of that event. Which is why governments around the world decided to SPEND during the gfc.

Of course, you may well be prepared to have the Libs in control regardless of the cost to the country. Maybe it's you that don't give a rats?

Spot on Formula and Relly.

We, our friends or rellos have ALL benefited from Oz's (usually) healthy attitude to social welfare (Medicare anyone?) and the philosophy of a 'safety net' at some time in the past and are likely to in the future..

Remember the recession in late 80's? Most CUBs probably don't but likely their folks benefitted in some way from Oz's welfare system and Medicare that followed soon after. Go on Mr jet ski polisher - ask ya folks about it sometime..

Unfortunately (IMO) the more afluent our country becomes the more the 'have's' want to distance themselves from the 'have not's and make sure the 'have not's' damn well stay there never to rise above the lower classes.

Keep on with this very US style attitude and try to treat the term/philosophy of 'social welfare' as an evil akin to kiddy fiddling and watch our 'fair go' society go to hell in a hand basket. [}:)]

And just wait for the 'have's' to go on and on about the rise in crime, violence and barricade themselves behind high estate walls.

cisco said...

Debt by definition is something that has to be repaid, so who do you think is going to have to repay this huge debt.

Taxpayers cisco, taxpayers repay it.

Which by definition means they have a job and are earning income.

Does nobody any bloomin' good whatsoever if the government has got a squillion truckloads of cash in the bank and half of everyone is out of a job. The cash wouldn't last long either if it was dribbled out in dole payments and we're all still out of a job would it?

Choose your evil, cisco.

EDIT: Now how about you name me one direct benefit you were getting from that money the government had in the bank. One. Don't forget, it was your money (and mine). I wanna know what I was getting for it. Eventually, I got $900 of my money back... which to me means they shouldn'a took it in the first place!

Mark _australia said...

SomeOtherGuy said...

cisco said...

Debt by definition is something that has to be repaid, so who do you think is going to have to repay this huge debt.

Taxpayers cisco, taxpayers repay it.

Which by definition means they have a job and are earning income.

Does nobody any bloomin' good whatsoever if the government has got a squillion truckloads of cash in the bank and half of everyone is out of a job. The cash wouldn't last long either if it was dribbled out in dole payments and we're all still out of a job would it?

Choose your evil, cisco.

EDIT: Now how about you name me one direct benefit you were getting from that money the government had in the bank. One. Don't forget, it was your money (and mine). I wanna know what I was getting for it. Eventually, I got $900 of my money back... which to me means they shouldn'a took it in the first place!

How about being able to pay for major projects without borrowing and paying interest?

Yes.... and all the pigs are lined up the runway ready to fly!

Mark _australia said...

SomeOtherGuy said...

cisco said...

Debt by definition is something that has to be repaid, so who do you think is going to have to repay this huge debt.

Taxpayers cisco, taxpayers repay it.

Which by definition means they have a job and are earning income.

Does nobody any bloomin' good whatsoever if the government has got a squillion truckloads of cash in the bank and half of everyone is out of a job. The cash wouldn't last long either if it was dribbled out in dole payments and we're all still out of a job would it?

Choose your evil, cisco.

EDIT: Now how about you name me one direct benefit you were getting from that money the government had in the bank. One. Don't forget, it was your money (and mine). I wanna know what I was getting for it. Eventually, I got $900 of my money back... which to me means they shouldn'a took it in the first place!

How about being able to pay for major projects without borrowing and paying interest?

How about us waking up to ourselves, showing some balls and supporting a government that stands on issuing our own currency

Oops, the John Kennedy lesson stuck pretty good!

^^^ too right

DrJ said...

I still have my $900.... In fact it's now worth about $1200 thanks to a term deposit.

Can I have that interest rate? When was the $900 paid out?

SomeOtherGuy said...Just wish the Libs had done a major project in all those years they were in. Or even helped to pay for stuff that we did have. Instead of just stashing cash in a sock and telling us how good they were!

+1

Saving the pennies while the house falls down around you - not the best long term solution.. but who thinks beyond 3yrs anyway? Certainly not many in Lab/Lib that's for sure.

Dumb it down, sell it to the masses in small (inaccurate) byte sized chunks.. If it gets sticky fall back on the fear of invasion or crime.. sit back and enjoy the ride all the way to the gold card retirement priviledges.. Ahh the life of the polli.


Sure would be nice to have a govt with balls.. Then again the Ruddster stood up to be counted and went his own way.. then got knee-capped by his own party.

Ditto for Turnbull.


The biggest thing holding the short and curlies of those with some gumption is the dodgy internal dynamics of both major parties.


What a kn joke the 2 party system is.