93kg 777 PT Skin 5.4 works well in 10 to 12 knots. Not so good if you get 15 plus gusts.

foilthegreats said..
I am in the market for a 6m. Thinking Ka'a but am waiting to see if BRM will launch a new offer soon.
Currently using Ka'a 4.2m with Dragonfly 7' 19" 100L and AFS E1300 as my light wind rig in 10-15 kts. I currently clock in at 85kg in my birthday suit.

My biggest concern is all the material a 6m has and management on the stow.

I think the smaller Ka'a might be far better than the big ones; I found the 5,4m Ka'a to be a piece of trash, would really not recommend it. The 777 P.T Skin 5.4m is just insanely much better. Better low end, better high end, far better angles, the canopy packs almost as small though the bar is a lot bigger (which actually makes the parawing steerable).

I've asked this question on a few facebook pages & even here I think. I got few if any replies from those that have actually bought them & use them & more from those that have smaller sizes & speculate. I'm in the same boat & would like to replace my 6m wing with a PW. Main reasons are not having the huge wing in my face & the increasingly ridiculously expensive prices to replace them.
You'll get the usual suspects that say can get up in 6knots of wind with a 3m PW blah blah blah but the only amateur footage I've seen in real world conditions showed the big PW to be quite cumbersome and not very reactive as can be expected.
Most manufacturers would be really happy to break into the lucrative big PW market however the scarcity of bigger PWs indicates that even they don't see them as a viable option yet.
I'm going to wait out this windless winter & see what happens next spring.

One of the nuances that I feel like gets left out is the surface condition and how swell direction aligns with wind. I can make a 4.3 PR work around 15 and maybe a little bit below if surface is smooth and water energy aligns favorably with my takeoff. But if its choppy or I'm working against or across the swell direction then I need a lot more wind (or a bigger sail).

Im doing some quiver adjustment now and totally torn as to whether to go 5m or 6m as my biggest size. Haven't ever ridden anything bigger than 5 (and biggest I own is a 4.3), but if it gets me more days on the water, then I'm all for it. Really becomes a question of whether I'm actually going to get any gains out of that last meter, or whether a wing that size just becomes ungainly (pun intended).

Velocicraptor said..
One of the nuances that I feel like gets left out is the surface condition and how swell direction aligns with wind. I can make a 4.3 PR work around 15 and maybe a little bit below if surface is smooth and water energy aligns favorably with my takeoff. But if its choppy or I'm working against or across the swell direction then I need a lot more wind (or a bigger sail).

Im doing some quiver adjustment now and totally torn as to whether to go 5m or 6m as my biggest size. Haven't ever ridden anything bigger than 5 (and biggest I own is a 4.3), but if it gets me more days on the water, then I'm all for it. Really becomes a question of whether I'm actually going to get any gains out of that last meter, or whether a wing that size just becomes ungainly (pun intended).

Absolutely agree. Trying to with launch the 4.3 I'm always looking for that short piece of calm water between the chop to gain that initial board speed.

FranP said..
Hi all,


From what I see, most riders and youtube test reviews are always using the 3-4 m? range. I rarely come across anyone talking about larger parawings, which makes me wonder:
- Are bigger sizes not yet bought and as market evolves, riders will expand their quiver to 5-6 m2 ??
- Are large parawings of second generation still facing stability / issues, or just diminishing returns?

So the real question: Is it worth going for a bigger parawing (5.5 or 6 m?) to make light wind sessions fun?
...or is PW simply not the right tool once the wind drops below a certain threshold ?


For context, I'm a solid winger, 94 kg , enjoying wing in 16+ knots ... and I'm looking for PW in 12-18 Knt. That's what got me interested in parawing for low wind days....Would love to hear from anyone with real experience on larger sizes-especially heavier riders.

Thanks!

Yeah I think 5.5m is a nice size and I get plenty of use out of this size. I am 105kg riding 100L ML and a few different Axis foils.
Previously I had the 5.5m Dwing ( I shortened the lines which helped a lot with packing) now I have 5.4 PT skin. With both of these I can ride reliably from about 12 knots up to about 20knots. I am usually doing shorter upwind downwind runs where I will go upwind about 500m -1.5kms and then cruise downwind. Previously I was wadding the wing up now I do a full stow. I will usually be doing this 10- 20+ times per session so plenty of practice packing down the bigger sizes. Lately I have been getting pretty much 100% redeploy from a full stow with my 5.4 PT skin which I am pretty stoked on.


Now definitely big parawings have issues and don't just scale up perfectly. They are overall more difficult to use, less stable and for shorter riders might not be manageable. Also transitions in light winds can be difficult.

I think bigger parawings need to be specifically designed for their size not just scaled up. So far it seems like the 5.4 PT skin has the best reputation out of the big parawings currently available but there's so much coming out on the market. I would be very interested to see how the biggest sizes of the Fone quest, Flow v2, Stash v2 and North Rover perform. And let's not forget about the 5.7 PT hybrid that could potentially have a massive wind range and great flying characteristics. Exciting times to be a foil frother!!

the grass always being greener, after listening to foilrat & Dimitri I'd love to try the 5.7 PT Hybrid, see just how much of a performance gain it is for 10-20+ knot ocean upwind/downwinders...
If its as stable as they reckon, be able to use it to chug home in feck all knots, and with a 5.7 and 3.1 combo - one flying one stowed - cover 99% of conditions round here.
..just how much patience does that hybrid leading edge require tho

I think its the law of diminishing returns.
I find i can get up even when the wind is not good enough to stay powered without pumping the foil for long periods but this is from 12 knots and bigger PW's don't seems to help much. The limiting factor is flying a PW in under 12 knots while slogging along because the effective wind can be as low as 6 or 8 knots at times while your waiting for that bump and gust to get up.

I think, regardless of your weight, to ride under 12 knots you need a specialized PW not just a bigger one as many PW brands don't fly well at all even on the beach in under 10 knots. I think it will need to be super light like the 777 PT and a great batten design and hopefully there are some additional brands in this specialized space beside 777 soon.

foilthegreats said..
I am in the market for a 6m. Thinking Ka'a but am waiting to see if BRM will launch a new offer soon.
Currently using Ka'a 4.2m with Dragonfly 7' 19" 100L and AFS E1300 as my light wind rig in 10-15 kts. I currently clock in at 85kg in my birthday suit.

My biggest concern is all the material a 6m has and management on the stow.

I would personally avoid the KA'A over 5.0. At that size, KANAHA will pull you up like a horse, at a proper angle, and even the 5.5 is gentle on the transitions and easy to stash.

bigtone667 said..
The 7.3m PT Skin is a great light wind pwing.

The build materials are super light (sail material and lines), so it flies in nothing and drifts well during turns (reminds me of a Peak4).
Gybing is really straight forward and turning is great (helped by the huge handle).

Not sure of the low number to get up and going, (10/12??) but the high number is probably around 15/16 knots (adding a harness will help you hold down even more power).

A really good pwing.

Have you been able to do downloop jibes or tacks with it? or is the 7.3m ptskin too big to maneuver well?
thx

So I ordered a 6m Ka'a with BRM only to reach out and tell me NEW Parawing coming in 1-2 months. Offered 30% off if I still wanted to keep my order or cancel. I choose to cancel and wait for the new product.

foilthegreats said..
So I ordered a 6m Ka'a with BRM only to reach out and tell me NEW Parawing coming in 1-2 months. Offered 30% off if I still wanted to keep my order or cancel. I choose to cancel and wait for the new product.

Hybrid? Paia v2?

Gorgo said..
My understanding of double skin parawings is you lose bottom end but you gain a heap of top end and better upwind performance.

There's another issue with some double skin wings, such as the Hybrid, that have mesh on the trailing edge drains. If your wing gets swamped in a shore break sand can get washed into the wing but there's no easy way for the wet sand to come out again. There can be kilos of sand inside the wing.

It took me 2-3 days of drying out the wing and manually chasing it out before I got all the sand out. The best way was to shake it all to one tip, reach in and grab that tip holding it bunched, then pull the tip out and dump the sand. Repeat as many times as necessary.

There's two solutions to this problem. One is for the wing to have an open sand/water drain big enough to let out large chunks of debris. The other is to paddle out well away from shore and into clean wind before launching the wing.

Hybrid has semi-opening following the whole centre part... No mesh.

BWalnut said..

MidAtlanticFoil said.. Exciting! I'm trying to hold off on the 777 Hybrid. Hopefully there are some mod recommendations to the Paia similar to the V1 to V2 single skins. Imagine if the Paia could be converted to a hybrid by removing a portion of the double skin towards the trailing edge!

Same here. I've heard nothing but positives about the 777 hybrid but I don't want to chase every new thing right now. I'd love to see some real data comparing double skin vs hybrid skin performance. Right now I'm just hearing that hybrid is 100% better in every way but I have a bit of a hard time believing that. Surely there is some tradeoff, even if it's worth it.

What harness line setup you rocking now B? Single att point? Stretch or static?

flowstate said.. What harness line setup you rocking now B? Single att point? Stretch or static?

Still over the moon for my chonky 18" windsurf monoloop! Can't imagine riding with anything else.

BBQdSunfish said..
I sold my BRM Ka'as, my Triple Seven PT Skin and one of my Flysurfer POWs (still trying to sell the last one) - and I picked up the Triple Seven PT Hybrid 4.3 and 5.7

These PWs have such a wide wind range, they haul upwind better than the POWs, and once you figure out the steering they are a ton of fun to fly/tack/jibe. This is the easiest PW to down loop jibe.

I am still working on developing a retracting technique (I am 5'7" and did the two pull on the Flysurfer POWs without any issue; just still in figuring it out mode with the Hybrids and the wind we've been getting is nearly straight offshore, so pretty tough sailing conditions). When I have ridden with the PW retracted, the lines do not get tangled up on each other and redeploy is drama free.

If the cells on the double skin side get flooded, I just bring the PW onto my board, pull on the front lines to get the PW to concertina, then hold it up by the front end - any water drains out fast, then relaunch is easy.

I'm glad I went this direction and the hybrid is pretty much just that - the best of the Paia and the single skin PWs

Good review. Are you saying the 4.3m is a two pull for you as well? Not surprising just want to confirm.