Is going smaller and smaller just hype and 'what the cool kids do' or does going to a board just centimetres shorter and of smaller volume really make such a noticeable difference when up on foil?
What performance increases will I notice and will these be truly significant?
(Am a lightweight riding a big foil board and happily gybing constantly.)
Am interested in all opinions, expert or not. Cheers.
Not hype, IMO. I used to think that I would never go below 60L-my weight is 82kg. I use either the Armstrong FG 34L or 39L. The latter is incredibly versatile, usable from 12kts and up. Volume is one thing but dimensions and shape will determine how quickly the board will plane and get on foil (not to mention ease of recovery off the water). Small boards are ace, especially in the waves and for jumping. The only trade-off is that I sometimes have to pump my wing like mad. Hard to go back once you go small.
I've gone from 105ltr to a 90ltr (I'm 95kgs) and I'm very happy with the decision. I may decide to go for a sinker board for high wind days to see how it feels but for the most part, I usually go out in iffy wind conditions and need something to float me back.
DC
How big a board do I need to be able to float back? I am 90 kg and are sailing i chobby water.
How big a board do I need to be able to float back? I am 90 kg and are sailing i chobby water.
I can easily float/paddle back on a -20 board. -30 would probably work, but I have less experience with that size.
This is just an average I see around.For truly coming home, even if the wind completely die and you need to stand about 2-3min without wind in your wing..a board around your weight will do this, after a while when a boat pass...too much wake...you might fall once in a while but you can wait for wind to come back while standing.Around -15 your weight, you need a light pull in your wing...to stand and move fwd...if no wind...board will sink a bit..and will become instable and you will fall shortly. TO wait for wind and comme back you need to be kneel...while holding the wind into position...don't need a pull you can leave it there until wind come back.Around -30...you need a pull in your wing to be kneeling and move fwd...without wind...you gonna sink your board while kneeling and you will fall shortly. Solution is to sit on the board straddle I think you say in english and wait for the wind.You need to swim back in all sort of board if the wind doesn't come back however lol.
Adding: sinkers are great but their use should be dependent on local conditions, skill level, and risk/reward tolerance.
Select to expand quotepaulweller2 said..
Adding: sinkers are great but their use should be dependent on local conditions, skill level, and risk/reward tolerance.
You've hit the nail on the head here Paul.
Sinkers are very skill dependant, they're more fun in every way possible. But if you're ever concerned about anything as per prior mentioned - they may not be a good idea.
At 72kg, I learned on a 95L board and now I ride a 75L. I am tempted to try my 32L prone board for higher wind days but my only reservation is that I might get tired to the point where I don't have the energy to "water start" such a small board. Maybe something in the 45-55L ballpark would make more sense.
I'm on a diy build board prob around body weight plus kit = 90kg. moved down from a 125-110-95. my conditions are usually patchy, even in strong wind can be moments of slogging. I don't want to go for a small board at the minute, it just seems like it will be too much like hard work. I went that route in windsurfing limiting days to being fully powered on a sinker board. with winging I want to get out in the lightest of winds with as little pumping effort I can get away with, lazy I know lol
My understanding is that your weight + board/foil weight= buoyancy needed to be above water(float).
So, a 'sinker' for a 75kg person with app 10kg of board/foil would be anything below 85L of buoyancy. Correct?
Select to expand quotemikey100 said..
My understanding is that your weight + board/foil weight= buoyancy needed to be above water(float).
So, a 'sinker' for a 75kg person with app 10kg of board/foil would be anything below 85L of buoyancy. Correct?
Not exactly. A fully submerged board can also be relatively stable as long as you do not sink above your ankles. Similarly to surf SUPs. -10 - 0 board will let you slog with virtually no wind.
Select to expand quoteBigZ said..mikey100 said..
My understanding is that your weight + board/foil weight= buoyancy needed to be above water(float).
So, a 'sinker' for a 75kg person with app 10kg of board/foil would be anything below 85L of buoyancy. Correct?
Not exactly. A fully submerged board can also be relatively stable as long as you do not sink above your ankles. Similarly to surf SUPs. -10 - 0 board will let you slog with virtually no wind.
But a fully submerged board, although still able to support weight, is still submerged and therefore technically a 'sinker'
So, even a slightly submerged board can have reasonable stability from what I am hearing.
A sinker board will require a larger wing size for any given wind strength. At our local the sinker guys are using 5's when I'm on a 4, my board is 6 lts under my body weight.
It weighs no more than a sinker board at 5kgs and as I don't jump, only swell ride I see no reason to change to a sinker that would require the use of a bigger wing just to get going.
Select to expand quotegneve said..
At 72kg, I learned on a 95L board and now I ride a 75L. I am tempted to try my 32L prone board for higher wind days but my only reservation is that I might get tired to the point where I don't have the energy to "water start" such a small board. Maybe something in the 45-55L ballpark would make more sense.
You could go half your weight, that is what they suggest. However half your weight, you could need to sink the board to get going and need to be powered to foil. A little more than half your weight, for example 45-50L you will be able to knee start the board stand up...schlog when little wind in your wing and wait for the big gust to stand-up. Not a big difference you will say, but if you are in a spot where you don't have 1.75m of water everywhere...that full sink start will create frustration for example if your wing is not fully tilt and you need to sink the board. Something to consider. At 55l at your weight, you will be able to kneel on it even if there is no wind in your wing.
Select to expand quotemikey100 said..
My understanding is that your weight + board/foil weight= buoyancy needed to be above water(float).
So, a 'sinker' for a 75kg person with app 10kg of board/foil would be anything below 85L of buoyancy. Correct?
I am 88kg, and my board is 75l. It floats me fine, it only sinks if the wind completely dies. Otherwise I can come back standing or on my knees. I don't need a bigger board, but thinking of getting a 58L custom for when it's strong.
Hi, I am 71kg, I used to ride a 75L and now moved to a 55L. The change was quite easy.
I think that at -15 you almost lose nothing in terms of low end as long as your pumping technique and physical condition are good enough. In exchange you get a lot more maneuverability and the overall feeling is just much more fun. It's easier to jump, turning is more direct, surfing is much more comfortable...etc.
At -15 the board does not sink a lot, if the wind completely dies you can still sit/lie on the board an paddle your way out.
I have tried a 42L board and that would require me a bigger wing but the reward to suffering tradeoff wasn't just good enough for me to consider it for a one board setup.
At -30 it sinks quite a lot, water starting is more tricky and requires more wind/bigger wing, but you can still knee start you have enough wind. Also, I found that landing jumps was much harder. If the wind dies it won't float you that much and paddling out might be harder.
It depends on the local conditions and preference, it's not the same 10-18kn range than 20+.
Me personally, in the lower range I'd rather go with bigger board (-15) and smaller wing (4m), rather that going to a 5m wing just to get the sinker going.
On the higher end I guess you can still use a small enough wing and get the smaller board going fairly easily.
I have tried it only once but that was my general feeling.
Anything bigger than -15 doesn't seem necessary to me once you are experienced enough, or for very marginal conditions.
Pro riders are all in the 50L ballpark, at least this is what I saw in Brazil this year.
You can compare the benefit with kitefoiling a pocket board!
At equal volume, a short but fat board will have less swing weight then a long, wide, thin board.
But it will be more difficult to knee start.
Getting on the foil will depend on the shape/wind/pumping skills/type of foil HA or not.
The best (from a certain skill level) is to use the smallest board possible you can confotably get on.
Also depends on you condition... I am 52, 115kg and can not "hop start". Just stinkbug so I am currently limited to -30L or a 85L board.
Select to expand quotemikey100 said..
What performance increases will I notice and will these be truly significant?
Not a hype... the difference is major. I see a bigger difference going from 30 (~4kg) to 20L (2.8kg) than from 850cm2 to 650cm2. I tested (65kg) 30L, 20L and 12L and my conclusion is that smaller is more fun, but below 30L, water starting is too annoying.
My experience with smaller boards is that starting the board annoyed me so much that I just surfed the way that I didn't fall anymore. So no more trying new manoeuvres or tricks. I returned to a board with the volume of my body weight or just a little bit below. In clean conditions a sinker board is probably nice but in choppy conditions it can be annoying.
Select to expand quoteFrankieboy said..
You can compare the benefit with kitefoiling a pocket board!
At equal volume, a short but fat board will have less swing weight then a long, wide, thin board.
But it will be more difficult to knee start.
Getting on the foil will depend on the shape/wind/pumping skills/type of foil HA or not.
The best (from a certain skill level) is to use the smallest board possible you can confotably get on.
Also depends on you condition... I am 52, 115kg and can not "hop start". Just stinkbug so I am currently limited to -30L or a 85L board.
Why is stinkbug only start - limiting you to -30L? Dont need to hop start (whatever that is) any board. Stinkbug it - no matter how small.
... ive been through the entire swath of board columes now and honestly it depends. Majority of the time a board around your body weight / litres is the best compromise - as long as its a good shape though.
but yeh nothing beats winging your prone board when its on.
To me, all the video, technics, stinkbug etc...are overated and sinkers are easy to get going unless you don't have enough wind.Stinkbug is better in situation where your board is coarky...around your weight in Volume, 70kg-70L..and water is very very choppy.Anyone should figure it out quit easy what is their best technic to foil a small board, biggest challenge is when the wind is border line.
Select to expand quoteNordRoi said..
To me, all the video, technics, stinkbug etc...are overated and sinkers are easy to get going unless you don't have enough wind.Stinkbug is better in situation where your board is coarky...around your weight in Volume, 70kg-70L..and water is very very choppy.Anyone should figure it out quit easy what is their best technic to foil a small board, biggest challenge is when the wind is border line.
Exactly thats the whole obvious point - its a wind strength / type issue. And a full sinker normally means you are putting a wing size that will get you out of the water - but then you are cooked somewhat whilst riding.
- when wind borderline or even comfortable on the actual water on a full sinker thats where the stinkbug works best as you are on your knees - eaiser to breach nose of board up and out of water.
Am really enjoying the variety of opinions to this question; would appear that the difference is worthwhile in most cases. Am surprised by how small the majority are using.
Select to expand quotemikey100 said..
Am really enjoying the variety of opinions to this question; would appear that the difference is worthwhile in most cases. Am surprised by how small the majority are using.
Are we agreeing that up to -15l floats you well and lower -30 becomes hard work?
I have 72 kg. Started to wing a year and a half ago on a friend's big 120l board a few times.
After that, I bought a 95l (4'10) board. After some 30 sessions (~60 hours) I ordered a smaller, 65 l (4'6) board but it got lost in transit so I spent in total some 45 sessions (~100 hours) on my 95 l board.
I had no issues riding 65 l board and it becomes a problem only when there is no wind at all. It is much less stable than 95 l but I don't mind it. I tried a few different methods of starting (and will try them again and again) but currently, the "normal" knee start works best for me. I wonder sometimes if a longer board would help me to get on foil sooner but even now I am one of the first to start foiling when conditions are marginal.
I love riding this board and would not like to go back to 95 l. Currently, I don't see a reason to go smaller.
Small boards are fun, but how much fun is very much depending on your conditions and skills.
I,m 188cmx95kg, incl a full hooded suit closer to a 100kg mostly riding in pretty constant wind but also 4-6sec period windwaves, big chop and strong current, making the stinkbug also pretty hard to do.
My 5.6AK 90l board is my go to board and can float me always home on my knees, with a tiny breeze standing/slogging as well.
My smaller board was an 4.9x60 and due the lack of length and probably skills it flipped under me away in every possible angle and needed at least an 1m bigger wing was with my 90l board.
Sold it and got an KT5.4x56l Although that is a -40 compared to my weight the extra length helps enormous with balancing on it to get to a starting position, but also in the gliding phase. Without enough wind i,m sinking to the bottom but I don,t need an 5 in 4m weather like with the shorter board. This might be different for someone who is smaller.
The KT is more fun, it feels more lively because its thinner and has less width as the 90l. It turns easier and offers more control, but I grab it only in easy conditions because in big waves or when it is so hard to start due the conditions the 90l offer simply more convenience and ease that I don,t need to swim back. And believe I dis swim a LOT since i got these smaller boards.
Overall for me is an board with volume equal to weight or max -10 an great allround size and the smaller boards a nice have as extra board, but if I can only bring one on a holiday it is a no brainer: the 90l
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Exactly thats the whole obvious point - its a wind strength / type issue. And a full sinker normally means you are putting a wing size that will get you out of the water - but then you are cooked somewhat whilst riding.
- when wind borderline or even comfortable on the actual water on a full sinker thats where the stinkbug works best as you are on your knees - eaiser to breach nose of board up and out of water.
In my case, I would say a sinker is taking about 3 knts more than my regular board on flat water to get going? 3knts seems nothing but in a range of 10-12knts for each wing, you are passed the 1/4 of your range? When I go in waves that got consequences, the capacity to foil immediately means you escape the 5th waves that will break way out or on you if you bailed on the 3rd of the set...yes it's a matter of fact I pick a wing that is at least 1/2 full to be sure, I agree.Is that mean I'll be cooked, no but that mean you cannot have a large spread between wings, so more investment I agree.I go from Straddle to knees on a hop, I find the stinkbug slower since you don't feel the power in the wing, but maybe a lack of technique in the stinkbug start, I should revisit that technique.I run 5.5-4.5-3.5, what is your range of wing?
Same ish 3-4-5m. Ive settled on body weight to minus 10 as the best bang for your buck (as mentioned above) for overall everyday use and a small full sinker prone board for mad days. The in between size . are just that . kinda in between nowwhere. Do miss my 60L FG though
I'm 77kg, and use 70l. The shape does make a difference too, longer and wider can be more stable despite lower volume.
If I had solid 20kts every day with no threat of it dropping off, flat water or non-breaking waves, plus an easy launch, I'd go smaller.
Trying to get a small board up when the wind has dropped can end up in disaster though where we wing. Kit-destroying shorebreak and breaking waves with small safe launch/exit spots. Also in the winter the wind can quickly switch off.
I've seen a lot of dicey situations now with sinkers. I'm actually going to get a hybrid-type DW board for dodgy days, knowing I can get it home safely if the wind drops.
