Just thinking
we spend huge amounts on efficient wings,ozone flux etc
the foils are becoming much more efficient
Yet looking at some of the boards,they look like they were shaped with a garden shovel,fanatic prime example
why aren't shapers looking at designs that make the board lift easy and fly aerodynamically
Why aren't they keeping the deck area wide but decrease the wetted area of the bottom(decrease the suction)
Lots of older guys can't stand on a 23" wide board even with a foil under it.
No rocket scientist,but instead of a straight chime curve it so the water flows and the wetted area is decreased.
Just a thought,like I said no shaper,wish I could.
Select to expand quoteDick Tatta said..
Just thinking
we spend huge amounts on efficient wings,ozone flux etc
the foils are becoming much more efficient
Yet looking at some of the boards,they look like they were shaped with a garden shovel,fanatic prime example
why aren't shapers looking at designs that make the board lift easy and fly aerodynamically
Why aren't they keeping the deck area wide but decrease the wetted area of the bottom(decrease the suction)
Lots of older guys can't stand on a 23" wide board even with a foil under it.
No rocket scientist,but instead of a straight chime curve it so the water flows and the wetted area is decreased.
Just a thought,like I said no shaper,wish I could.
Look at Kalama boards or get a custom.
Im 72yrs and have no issues standing and taxiing a Barracuda 7'10" x 19. at slow speed.
I look at a similar footprint to a Gun, I feel right at home plus and it taxis fast. Light wind dream.
A lot of good thoughts about board shape in BWalnut's post;
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/400-Hours-On-Foil--A-summer-on-narrow-boards-and-the-search-for-a-perfect-surf-experience-?page=1
Also check out the board shape used by Alan Cadiz.
Select to expand quoteDick Tatta said..
Why aren't they keeping the deck area wide but decrease the wetted area of the bottom(decrease the suction)
Because wetted area does not matter at low speeds. For a typical foil board (short & wide), drag is dominated by form drag. Downwind boards actually have a larger wetted surface area, but pick up and keep speed a lot better because their form drag is a lot lower (less projected area, and lower drag coefficient). The same is true for many other water toys like race SUPs and row boats.
If you fix board width, then the only ways to reduce drag are to change the shape to a more streamlined form (reduce the drag coefficient), and to increase length and volume. By adding length and volume, the depth of the projected area can be reduced proportionally, and hence the area surface and total form drag (which is one reason why longboards for windsurf racing kept gaining volume over the years). But for foil boards, this approach is highly unpopular. Everyone can understand "swing weight" and "radical carving", but much fewer people understand hydrodynamics.
You need to get used to narrower torpedo style board. It has better hydrodynamic on the water and good aerodynamics in the air.
The only downside is the stability on the roll axis when stationary on the water. A bit more volume than traditional shape will help a bit on this aspect.
Wide board is so bad in and out of water. I learn on high volume, wide-and-thin board and it was so bad in high wind.
I have foiled Saltwaterwine's tooth pick and agree with him, it's a lot more stable than one would expect. Me 77 yo and 73kg.
Back a bit I realised I needed a bigger board to get up from kneeling in light wind from my Fanatic TE Free 105 l. I also have had 2 SUP foil boards both very different in many ways however, both have good long water line lengths. I can get up foiling on both ie Naish Hover dedicated SUP foil board 2019 135l dead flat rocker and the other a Fanatic Bee 120l lots of rocker, just very differentpumpingstyles. I can foil these from 8kn with 6.5 Duotone dlab and Axis ART pro 1051 with skinny 360 Stab.
I demoed Naish DW 125l board and no great benefit over the other 2 monsters.
Lately demoed the 105 Naish DW board with all the benefits I was after eg stability, easy to stand from kneeling, excellent board speed to get my ART pro 951 up foiling.
Now 85% of the time all I use is the Naish 105l DW board and Axis ART pro 951 and 360 skinny rear with suitable windwing size for the conditions.
61 years old, 82kg, 6' tall
Now on a Kalama E3 5'9" x 22 1/2" @ 95litres
i don't think I could have learnt on this board, but I had a 7'2" x 19" @ 103litre Amos Sultan previously and I reckon that would be suitable for a beginner as the length minimised the need for fore/aft balance corrections, the 19" width didn't make it tippy as my 93cm mast and foil gave plenty of roll stability and the volume allowed me to stand in no wind and use my wing as a prop. As soon as you started moving, which was pretty much immediately in any wind due to the long, narrow DW shape, the roll stabilty is awesome, even in waves and chop.
Taxiing is a doddle as the long board tracks really well and I could maintain a high upwind course even in nothing wind. Paddling either prone or kneeling was easy and efficient as the board moves so quickly through the water.
Once on foil, the pitch stability was great as it felt like I had a slower/less reactive movement which allowed me to stay up on foil without having to worry about sudden breaching and/or touchdowns. All the touchdowns were easy as the long DW style doesn't "stick" to the water like the typical short/wide wing boards. There have been multiple posts on the benefits of a long, narrow DW style board for winging, and it's not just light wind where they excel.
61 years old, 82kg, 6' tall
Now on a Kalama E3 5'9" x 22 1/2" @ 95litres
i don't think I could have learnt on this board, but I had a 7'2" x 19" @ 103litre Amos Sultan previously and I reckon that would be suitable for a beginner as the length minimised the need for fore/aft balance corrections, the 19" width didn't make it tippy as my 93cm mast and foil gave plenty of roll stability and the volume allowed me to stand in no wind and use my wing as a prop. As soon as you started moving, which was pretty much immediately in any wind due to the long, narrow DW shape, the roll stabilty is awesome, even in waves and chop.
Taxiing is a doddle as the long board tracks really well and I could maintain a high upwind course even in nothing wind. Paddling either prone or kneeling was easy and efficient as the board moves so quickly through the water.
Once on foil, the pitch stability was great as it felt like I had a slower/less reactive movement which allowed me to stay up on foil without having to worry about sudden breaching and/or touchdowns. All the touchdowns were easy as the long DW style doesn't "stick" to the water like the typical short/wide wing boards. There have been multiple posts on the benefits of a long, narrow DW style board for winging, and it's not just light wind where they excel.
Off course if you want something different you need a custom.
Maybe I'm trying to combine 2 boards into 1
Ive ridden an Amos Sultan,great board,flys really quick,stable when paddling in flat water,but get it in waves with chop and white water different board,for me I spend more time concentrating on balance than enjoying the surf.
They work really well for younger fitter lighter people,as a downwind board they are brilliant, according to guys that ride them.
Sorry I do believe that less wetted area means less suction equals easy faster lift.More aerodynamic thru the air,with a curved chime.You need the board to have less drag thru the air,no sharp edges to disrupt air flow.Soft rails near the nose hard rails to the rear.
Mucking around with a design program,I can get 6'5" x 28"using a curved chime theory,20-22" wetted area.With a volume of maybe 115-120 litres.easy to surf easy to balance no real problems if the wind drops
playing with a Kalama style tail I could even reduce that area.
I want to use the new style carbon mat the one with either red,blue or silve flecks thru it, not sure how that will take to a curved chime eg will we need to hand sand the s.t out of it to get to to sit properly.
But it still doesn't answer the question of why of the self boards wing specific,are so ugly, aerodynamic useless.
Is it because,they are cheap to make,made to withstand rough use or is it that the profits are larger,put a pro on one and people will buy.
thx for all the replies
Some new models are a bit longer, narrower and thicker ( Armstrong, Omen, Takoon). Longer isn't always best, more board to get knocked in short chop before moving, so guess brands are working towards best compromise for most conditions.
Some new models are a bit longer, narrower and thicker ( Armstrong, Omen, Takoon). Longer isn't always best, more board to get knocked in short chop before moving, so guess brands are working towards best compromise for most conditions.
Select to expand quoteDick Tatta said..
Mucking around with a design program,I can get 6'5" x 28"using a curved chime theory,20-22" wetted area.With a volume of maybe 115-120 litres.easy to surf easy to balance no real problems if the wind drops
I learned on a 28" wide board with similar length and volume. Yes, it will be very stable on the water and maybe not very hard (but you can't expect DW displacement speed with 28" width) to get up in light wind because of its length and volume. But it will fly with a lot of compromises. With a large frontal area, its CdA will be higher than the torpedo-styled board. The swing weight and its width will limit how you surf with this board.
Select to expand quoteDick Tatta said..
But it still doesn't answer the question of why of the self boards wing specific,are so ugly, aerodynamic useless.
Because, just like wetted area, aerodynamics usually don't matter. Air is about 800 times less dense than water, so air drag is proportionally smaller. So if hydrodynamics have been mostly ignored in board design, why even look at aerodynamics?
Sure, drag goes up with the square of speed, so if you're usually out in 30+ knots, maybe you can feel some effect of the wind on your board. But if you look at foil boards that are routinely raced competitively in 30+ knots of wind, they are all short, fat, and very wide. For example, the two smaller Patrick foil race boards are 76 and 83 cm wide, about the width of beginner windfoil boards. The IQ Foil board is 95 cm wide. Lots of sharp edges on these boards, too.
Select to expand quoteDick Tatta said..
Mucking around with a design program,I can get 6'5" x 28"using a curved chime theory,20-22" wetted area.With a volume of maybe 115-120 litres.easy to surf easy to balance no real problems if the wind drops
Can you explain how you can get the stability of 28 inch width if only 20-22" are wetted area? Maybe you should build a board to test your theories, or get a custom builder to make you one.
BTW, I have in the past modified a narrow slalom board by adding a wider platform on top, primarily to get more leverage over the foil with a sail. The surprising result was that the board ended up a lot harder to balance on, even though it was wider. The few cm in added height reduced stability a lot more than what was gained from the extra width on top. Anyone who ever sailed flat bottom longboards and D2 boards downwind will understand.
Select to expand quoteDick Tatta said..
Mucking around with a design program,I can get 6'5" x 28"using a curved chime theory,20-22" wetted area.With a volume of maybe 115-120 litres.easy to surf easy to balance no real problems if the wind drops
I'm a shaper. The board you designed will be a turd. I suggest you build it, and find out for yourself.
Alternate plan, demo more boards.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..Dick Tatta said..
Mucking around with a design program,I can get 6'5" x 28"using a curved chime theory,20-22" wetted area.With a volume of maybe 115-120 litres.easy to surf easy to balance no real problems if the wind drops
I'm a shaper. The board you designed will be a turd. I suggest you build it, and find out for yourself.
Alternate plan, demo more boards.
Interesting statement,thought as a shaper you'd be interested in new theories and designs.
The board is on the way,once the file is refined and get a slot on a machine to do the cuts.
My shaper has has the exact opposite opinion,He's helped refine it.Also building a prone board
He has over 40 yrs experience..
the post wasn't about my design,it was about the fact no company is really into building aerodynamic boards that are easy lift and fly better, only real innovations are from Armstrong and other custom builders
Hi DT,
I'm no shaper either, but there's a recent move by many in my local area onto the downwind boards for light air foiling. I've recently gotten a Smik 7' x 23 inch 130L downwind board that I'm using for winging. As an oldish?? guy (54), it's a definite improvement for getting going in light winds - much easier. Once up, I think it probably does suffer from wind resistance, but I'll have that any day to get flying in 1-2 knots less wind than I have been previously with my other boards. And in terms of stability it's a touch tippier than my conventional 115 Litre board. I'd say the difference in stability is minor. I wouldn't necessarily recommend someone learn on a DW board, but it's a good progression board. The conventional boards might still suit a lot of learners for stability.
I think the wide range of board shapes we have on offer are good as there's a wide range of shapes that suit lots of different foilers of different capabilities learning and progressing in different conditions.
So I think there's a move now to thinner boards as boardsurfr says. Definitely faster through the water in displacement mode. And I don't think the loss of stability will put many people off. Too many benefits. It looks like its the way things are moving for lighter wind conditions - for now.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..Dick Tatta said..
Mucking around with a design program,I can get 6'5" x 28"using a curved chime theory,20-22" wetted area.With a volume of maybe 115-120 litres.easy to surf easy to balance no real problems if the wind drops
I'm a shaper. The board you designed will be a turd. I suggest you build it, and find out for yourself.
Alternate plan, demo more boards.
I'm agree 6'8 x 28 will be like a barge awful to turn and will suck onto water so take off late. the only time it will be any good is stood on it not moving ?????
It's not original idea,it's not totally my idea I just sowed the seeds
I was talking to my mate the shaper how boards are ugly and no thought f the board inflight
that was what the original post was about,boards are not being aerodynamic inflight,how manufacturers are palming of cheap designs at premium prices.Not my design or his design.
I have a fascination with foil yachts,and there design,look at the shape front on,showed him.They spent millions getting a large deck and narrow water line.
His mind went into overdrive,I'm sure he'll take orders.$3000 in carbon.
We know that it will work,after discussing with other guys up here, backyard shapers,they are taking a similar approach,but some are more radical.Experimenting with tail design,nose and concaves.Trying to get that elusive all round board.
This is what happens when old surfers retire and have time on their hands.
look at Phil Myers channel designs,water and air flow better over curves.
Ill post photos when it's glassed,if the carbon works,if not back to plain black.
Your thoughts on why it won't work are interesting
thx
I guess most brands design boards to be stable stationary, taxi fast, be manoeuvrable once flying. Aerodynamics is way down the list as dwarfed by drag from wing, you and foil.
Most aero drag when on foil surely come from the wing and the rider not the board. It's not foil boat with significant frontal area from the hull.
The only time when I feel the force from the air on the board was when I learned on 7" 115L Starboard wing board 3.5 years back. That board has very wide nose far from the nast and has too much rake when pair with my 2000cm2 beginner foil. So when flying at low speed in strong wind I feel the nose got push sideway by the wind.
When I move to smaller board and faster foil I never feel that again.
The americas cup boats have to be wide to accommodate the foil arms, rams, mast shrouds, crew loads of stuff. look at how wide a Moth is, it's as wide as the rudder pintle with the wings raised so don't touch water
pretty sure a 6'8 x 28 wide will be less aerodynamic than a 7'8 x 20 dw shape, look at aeroplanes they are not wide. Our board widths are limited by foot size and ability to stand on them, narrower is always more aerodynamic but as said most drag comes from our bodies and the wing hence why on americas cup boats they use solid wings and the people are hidden with just heads out for driver and trimmer 
Have a look at the AFS Whitebird 6'8 x 23, 115 Liter. Th combination of narrow outline, bulky nose, pintail bottom with square wide tail and lowered stance area works so well.
I got a similar shaped custom board recently, and this board is amazing. Quite stable for my 93 kgs, far more stable than my Gong Cruazader Hipe 7'11 x 22 (because of the thickness and tree log effect!).
Takeoff speed not far from a pure DW board, but less "directonial". Also I couldn't feel any negative aerodynamical effect in the air in 20+ knots winds.
Select to expand quoteAlexF said..
Have a look at the AFS Whitebird 6'8 x 23, 115 Liter. Th combination of narrow outline, bulky nose, pintail bottom with square wide tail and lowered stance area works so well.
I got a similar shaped custom board recently, and this board is amazing. Quite stable for my 93 kgs, far more stable than my Gong Cruazader Hipe 7'11 x 22 (because of the thickness and tree log effect!).
Takeoff speed not far from a pure DW board, but less "directonial". Also I couldn't feel any negative aerodynamical effect in the air in 20
The Afs at 23 is quite a bit different to a 28 wide board.
Also aerodynamically the Gong with its pointy nose and narrower width is way more efficient than the afs rounded nose
Just talking aerodynamics not ease of use, where I notice narrower smaller boards catch less wind most is in pretty offshore wave riding over 25knts. My 5'3 x 23 rounded nose catches way more wind and pushes me up the wave compared to my smaller pointier nose board
Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
Once up, I think it probably does suffer from wind resistance
That's likely to be confirmation bias - if we expect something to be the case, it probably will be, regardless of actual fact.
In light and moderate wind, the apparent wind angle on beam reaches and going upwind is mostly from the front - even more so than for the hand wing due to the vertical wind gradient. At 50-80 cm above the water surface, the true wind is quite low, so induced wind dominates the apparent wind. So wind resistance would be very similar to resistance in the water - lower than for wider boards due to a lower project area and a lower drag coefficient. This starts to change only when the true wind at the board level gets higher than board speed.
Select to expand quoteAlexF said..
Have a look at the AFS Whitebird 6'8 x 23, 115 Liter. Th combination of narrow outline, bulky nose, pintail bottom with square wide tail and lowered stance area works so well.
I got a similar shaped custom board recently, and this board is amazing. Quite stable for my 93 kgs, far more stable than my Gong Cruazader Hipe 7'11 x 22 (because of the thickness and tree log effect!).
Takeoff speed not far from a pure DW board, but less "directonial". Also I couldn't feel any negative aerodynamical effect in the air in 20+ knots winds.
Interesting board shape - like a compressed version of the Starboard longboards. For non-planing speeds, the rounded underwater shape should have a lot less drag than cutouts. I think we'll see more boards like this in the future.
Look at a foiling moth hull shape, long, narrow to get maximum displacement speed to engage foil. When foiling u get stability automatically.
