I'm moving toward higher aspect foils and trying to choose "correct" board. There is a lot of boards with different bottom shapes, some of them working better, some just OK, some not working well. My buddy who switched from last year model of some company (bevels) to this year Fanatic (hard rails) was shocked how much faster new board getting up. On other hand there is Kalama E3 with huge bevels and it seems to work fine according to reviewers. Here is the question: which shape works best for HA foils? Bevels or no bevels? Shorter or longer? Rocker or no rocker?
Interested in views on this as planning an other board build next year. I built a shape similar to fanatic, flat full tail, sharp edges. now I'm thinking more along the E3 shape, keeping a bit of length to try and get the board moving fast through the water to get on foil early in light winds.
For wingning it's a cycle of progress, each iteration you...can contradict yourself. For example, first step on a beginner board, 6'6" will make anyone foil sooner. After a while a 5'5-5'10 will glide and unstick faster and bevel rail and big concave will make you recover better. After that, you enter in the HA...need less concave, less bottom shape and sharper rail to gain speed faster and still need lenght. After you master you HA...The shorter the less wet surface to a certain extend unstick faster and you don't need longer and narrow board, but very short and narrow etc. If you follow the trend of board during each version, that is representing the average level rider for each era and what was working best back then in my opinion.
Size of 85 liter boards:
Fanatic Sky Wing 5'2" x 25" - boxy shape
Fanatic Sky Style TE 5'1" x 24.5" - boxy shape
Kalama E3 4'8" x 26" - canoe shape
I think Kalama shortest at this point. Will next iteration go shorter?
Regarding bottom shapes , it seems to depend on what compromises you are prepared to make. Plus as usual with anything to do with board shapes there are a lot of BS marketing claims and voodoo floating around. Big concaves for instance are great for touchdowns but bad for early release.
Cutouts are BS for winging - a carryover from slalom windsurfing design. Starboard are particularly guilty of this , but they do have a strong windsurfing lineage. But it over complicates something which should be simple.
Sharp edges assist earlier release. I believe the Kalama v tail design probably has the easiest release , but maybe less kneeling or standing stability due to the sheer amount of volume that has been removed from the tail compared to a squarer more blocky design. So the question is - are you prepared to pay this price? Other benefits to the Kalama design are less contact with water surface when laying over in a turn .
I have three designs of board in my quiver currently , which has informed my opinions ( I'm 78kg and been winging for 2 1/2 years):
- Starboard 4'6 with cutouts at rear - removal of volume from the cutouts makes it more unstable for kneeling on than it needs to be
- 2 x ONE concave deck boards ( 5'3 and 5'10) with beveled tail and quite a rolled underside with large soft bevels. Good overall but lack of volume in tail can be a pain occasionally
- North Seek 2022 - short with very blocky tail with sharp edges, amazing secondary stability for standing - I guess as it is a very rectangular shape the full width is carried through more if the board, plus the full volume in the tail improves fore-aft stability. I use it for Sup foiling and very LW winging. It foils up very easily. I tried a mates Kalama E3 copy which was 7in longer and found it a lot less stable to stand on which I put down to the pin tail. For me this was a direct comparison between the two different designs. I'm preferring lots of volume in the tail currently, for early release plus overall stability.
I used to have a 5'2 inflatable and I could get that up on foil with around 3 pumps of the wing , even though people seem convinced that they won't release easily. Not the case for me. Touchdowns on the other hand were terrible.
I have been on ARTs since they came out and before that HPSs and the Armie HA1125 so have good experience with HA foils. LW winging is where you really find out the differences between various board and foil designs !
The Kalama influence is everywhere, in some form, in everyone's newest shapes. Even if the influence is very subtle.
Rocker is less sticky.
Avoid old looking shapes. If you see steps and notches run away.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
The Kalama influence is everywhere, in some form, in everyone's newest shapes. Even if the influence is very subtle.
Rocker is less sticky.
Avoid old looking shapes. If you see steps and notches run away.
Yep, more every day.
Freedom Nugget wingboard,
Gong Lethal model .. world champion board?
Takuma's latest I saw posted last today.
Like just about all DW boards now have a chined pintail ... looks like wing latest boards will soon too.
Hi motogon,
I honestly think there is too much varied information about board shape and it's relevance. The new shapes from Duotone/Fanatic is all about making as small a board as possible with the largest amount of volume. By removing bevels they are adding a hard release edge and packing volume into the vacant space where the bevel was.
As most experienced riders are riding boards with volume in litres equal to, or less than their body weight, the majority of the board will be underwater or at least deeply immersed. The hard edge and full volume will aid in getting up to speed,and releasing from the water, but the speed isn't the issue when using a high aspect foil.
I mostly ride SABFoil W1110 and 1150-L or 1350-L high aspect foils in the 9.5-10.5:1 ratio and I can pop up onto wing with one pump of the back foot with a board with slight bevels. I ride an 80lt board and weigh 100kg and can start in light and strong wind equally easily. The bevels are more about giving a softer touch when you are mid turn and your rail touches the surface. Hard rails are not as good for this issue as they tend to bite and assist in crashing.
So speed is not an issue to water start, the volume in the tail definitely gives a pitch stability advantage over bevels. If you are talking about high speed low surface area wings, then speed is critical and release edge is critical but for HA, I feel board shape is irrelevant.
The two boards pictured are the:-
Fanatic SkyStyle 5'1" which has 85lt, and 24.5" width. Hard rails and hard tail.
SIC Raptor 5' which has 80lt and 25" width. The SIC has slight bevels on the rails and tail.
I find the Fanatic board is harder for me to water start due to sinking the tail enough to hook my foot up to get to my knees from straddled. The Raptor is less stable in pitch which makes it easy to sink the tail and get my foot aboard to easily get to my knees. Keeping in mind the entire board is underwater when I am on my knees and not moving. I have ridden both boards and like them both, but for me, the SIC takes the win for reasons mentioned above, it tends to also be a little more forgiving in a touch down, but is less
stable but easier for me in starts.
I hope this has been helpful.
DM 
Select to expand quoteActionSportsWA said..The bevels are more about giving a softer touch when you are mid turn and your rail touches the surface. Hard rails are not as good for this issue as they tend to bite and assist in crashing.
Second this, I have a Kalama E3 and it is amazing to turn. Rarely touches down due to the massive tail bevel; when it does hit the water you hardly notice it.
Select to expand quotehilly said..ActionSportsWA said..The bevels are more about giving a softer touch when you are mid turn and your rail touches the surface. Hard rails are not as good for this issue as they tend to bite and assist in crashing.
Second this, I have a Kalama E3 and it is amazing to turn. Rarely touches down due to the massive tail bevel; when it does hit the water you hardly notice it.
I'm more interested in getting a HPS foil going in the lightest of winds. how does the E3 work aim light wind conditions, does the shape promote board speed allowing you to get on foil quicker. I find with HPS I need more board speed, bring it up more level than old style back foot pumping on low aspect foil. Or am I missing something in technique.
thanks.
Select to expand quotergmacca said..
I'm more interested in getting a HPS foil going in the lightest of winds. how does the E3 work aim light wind conditions, does the shape promote board speed allowing you to get on foil quicker.
It depends on how small a HA foil you plan to ride. The kalama style wins in light wind for sure. Where the crossover to a narrow high speed planing board wins over the kalama, is for guys riding 500 to 600 sq cm racing foils. At this point, having a board that can reach a much "faster" planing speed before lift off, is better. Most people just need good speed from their boards, not really high speeds to lift off.
I think you're in the kalama style camp with HAs in light to moderate wind.
Select to expand quotemotogon said..
I'm moving toward higher aspect foils and trying to choose "correct" board. There is a lot of boards with different bottom shapes, some of them working better, some just OK, some not working well. My buddy who switched from last year model of some company (bevels) to this year Fanatic (hard rails) was shocked how much faster new board getting up. On other hand there is Kalama E3 with huge bevels and it seems to work fine according to reviewers. Here is the question: which shape works best for HA foils? Bevels or no bevels? Shorter or longer? Rocker or no rocker?
Motogon, If you can specify which HA foils you're moving towards you might get more focused answers.
HA foils characteristics differs from brand to brand, not all created equally. Some could be more sensitive to board design.
The conditions you ride in can play a key role in your choice of board and foil as well. Just a suggestion.
I think the bottom shape has a lot to do with where the board was mainly developed. I know that Sky lives on Maui, but he designed the latest boards with a more "broad" thinking. The canoe shape of the Kalama boards are definitely more "Maui" influenced... since it's a shape that works better in heavy chop and high wind. In a place like Maui, you really don't need a flat board that takes off easy.. because it's so windy there, you can take off on anything.
Select to expand quoteFoilWays said..
I think the bottom shape has a lot to do with where the board was mainly developed. I know that Sky lives on Maui, but he designed the latest boards with a more "broad" thinking. The canoe shape of the Kalama boards are definitely more "Maui" influenced... since it's a shape that works better in heavy chop and high wind. In a place like Maui, you really don't need a flat board that takes off easy.. because it's so windy there, you can take off on anything.
I have a Kalama and it is flat and takes off easy.
The image below shows how flat they are.
That's Tomoyasu. I still remember when we both competed in the same final heat at the Maui Kite Festival 2003(04?). That was soon after he arrived on Maui, during the earlier days of kiteboarding.
Anyway, yes, the center is flat... but all that V at the back pushes the board harder into the water and in my opinion this improves stability and tracking when paddling and gaining speed, but when it comes to light wind with a wing, a flat wide back just gets you going quicker. That's what I was talking about.
Select to expand quoteburchas said..motogon said..
I'm moving toward higher aspect foils and trying to choose "correct" board. There is a lot of boards with different bottom shapes, some of them working better, some just OK, some not working well. My buddy who switched from last year model of some company (bevels) to this year Fanatic (hard rails) was shocked how much faster new board getting up. On other hand there is Kalama E3 with huge bevels and it seems to work fine according to reviewers. Here is the question: which shape works best for HA foils? Bevels or no bevels? Shorter or longer? Rocker or no rocker?
Motogon, If you can specify which HA foils you're moving towards you might get more focused answers.
HA foils characteristics differs from brand to brand, not all created equally. Some could be more sensitive to board design.
The conditions you ride in can play a key role in your choice of board and foil as well. Just a suggestion.
Go Foil. At this point RS1150. Thinking about RS1075 and may be RS850 for windy days.
Conditions: Most of the time flat water, sometimes very choppy (depends on wind and tide). Part time Maui.
Select to expand quotehilly said..FoilWays said..
I think the bottom shape has a lot to do with where the board was mainly developed. I know that Sky lives on Maui, but he designed the latest boards with a more "broad" thinking. The canoe shape of the Kalama boards are definitely more "Maui" influenced... since it's a shape that works better in heavy chop and high wind. In a place like Maui, you really don't need a flat board that takes off easy.. because it's so windy there, you can take off on anything.
I have a Kalama and it is flat and takes off easy.
The image below shows how flat they are.
Thats really interesting, I have never seen one in the flesh as no one has DK on the GC.
I was wondering if they had tail rocker or not, as all the latest Fanatic and North wingboards are coming out with tail rocker.
I found a post from "standup zone forum" which said they have a fair bit. Must be camera angle?
Select to expand quotemotogon said..burchas said..motogon said..
I'm moving toward higher aspect foils and trying to choose "correct" board. There is a lot of boards with different bottom shapes, some of them working better, some just OK, some not working well. My buddy who switched from last year model of some company (bevels) to this year Fanatic (hard rails) was shocked how much faster new board getting up. On other hand there is Kalama E3 with huge bevels and it seems to work fine according to reviewers. Here is the question: which shape works best for HA foils? Bevels or no bevels? Shorter or longer? Rocker or no rocker?
Motogon, If you can specify which HA foils you're moving towards you might get more focused answers.
HA foils characteristics differs from brand to brand, not all created equally. Some could be more sensitive to board design.
The conditions you ride in can play a key role in your choice of board and foil as well. Just a suggestion.
Go Foil. At this point RS1150. Thinking about RS1075 and may be RS850 for windy days.
Conditions: Most of the time flat water, sometimes very choppy (depends on wind and tide). Part time Maui.
The good new is that these foils work great with everything. I foiled these on few custom boards, F-one, Kalama, Slingshot and Fanatics including the new Sky Style 4'11. If you pick the board that you feel comfortable with for the conditions you ride most, I believe you'll do just fine. The bad news, you have so many choices to go with. Me thinks that's a good problem to have.
Just to add to equation:
length of waterline versus experienced swing weight. In this light the Armstrong Forward Geometry was a precursor of the Kalama E3 style boards and both seem to work with moderate (>6) to high (>9) aspect ratios.the KT Ginxu is based on different design priorities. But will work with enough skills and/or wing power.
local guy uses his downwind sup Kalama style even with 20+ knots because it allows him to use both smaller foil and wing.
HA thinner foils require more speed to activate. For a faster take off you would want a board that can generate speed throught the water even before planing stage. If there is enough wind or swell power, planing is ok and you get there eventually. If the conditions are ****sy, narrow and longer works the best. I have Kalama boards now and cannot say it enough.. the design works amazingly well.. but there are other brands models with similar characteristics
Select to expand quotemotogon said..
Go Foil. At this point RS1150. Thinking about RS1075 and may be RS850 for windy days.
Conditions: Most of the time flat water, sometimes very choppy (depends on wind and tide). Part time Maui.
I ride those exact foils with a kalama style wing board. In Florida, where light wind happens a lot.
I used to ride flat wide planing bottomed boards.
He is the difference in head to head testing.
The Kalama style gets moving earlier in choppy water states. With a planing bottom, you sometimes need to hunt for the best patch of water, or wave, to get moving and make the transition to planing. The planing style board goes from zero to hundred instantly. Creating the illusion of being better, but it's not, in uber light wind. The Kalama style moves through the water effortlessly in choppy water, then transitions to foiling speed smooth and easy.
Where the "narrow" planing bottom wins, is if you were riding the RS650 and RS500. That board would transition to a higher overall top speed on the water, making lift off easier. A wide planing bottom would not. Too wide is draggy and sticky. That's why windsurf foilboard have massive notches, to unstick them. FYI, the newest prototype pro windsurf foil boards have kalama style notching.
Comparing bigger, wider boards, the Kalama out performs the big flat planing bottom style every time. The Kalama is less sticky and surfs rail to rail better. With fewer tail taps, and less drag on bottom touches.
