SchobiHH said..

Bouke-Witchcraft said..

Mark _australia said..
No argument there

My issues is a "wide board is better, look at wings"
Look at what?
A glider and a Edge540 and a F35 are all the same are they?

Its a silly statement. Then if anyone questions him, he yells that scientists advise him and nobody else knows anything about the science. He was the same in the fin thread.

Sorry guys, busy days over here, wind and waves every day and loads of customers.

The huge difference between a glider and an F35 is the amount of power. If you need to be power efficient, like us windsurfers also need to be, a wider, shorter board is more efficient. Like Mr Love also explained in different words. With any foil, the first part the medium we are in (water or air) makes contact with, provides the most power/lift. Off course there are other things to take into consideration like leverages and construction strength. With the amount of force of an F35, the wings of a glider would snap right off and with such speeds is not necesary either. With a very long and narrow windsurf sail, the leverage would get higher so harder to hold and the forces on the mast increase. With a board, once at speed more width becomes harder to put the rail (the leverage you can apply with your feet is limited) and to control.

This is a waveboard thread. your argumentation is flawed, or do you see F1 Cars at the Rally Dakar. Width main reason is not the Lift/Drag coefficent which your argument is, but because to have a bigger lever for the bigger fin you put into your slalom board. Which lets the board fly higher of the water which in the end reduces drag. Nothing else matters that much. BTW or why do think the tail in the slalom board is so narrow looking from under the board compared to the top. It is only the surface that touches the water that matter. Or why are Speed boards long and narrow. If width would be of any importance, speed boards would look different for sure.
But hey the earth is flat.

Why are speed boards long and narrow? They are narrow because they are used in more wind and to be sailed on a broad reach so there is more propulsion into the direction you are going. The power is the difference. If you have enough power you can get a tree trunk planing.Speed boards are as long as wider boards to have more control (against catapults for example) and have a low water entry angle. In lighter winds and more up wind courses you need a wider board. The wetted area in the tail is made narrower as once at speed, it will give more control and less drag, you need the width up front to get planing earlier. Width is more efficient than length. There are various reasons why most boards have a tapered outline: You get planing on the wider section and you have control and less drag once at speed on the tail. Plus on wave boards a tapered outline makes a board more reactive to foot steering. That are a lot of positive effects. Only if you go too extreme, the board can become twitchy and a wide board in the front becomes harder to bottom turn at speed. The width up front also helps with stability to uphaul a wave board in very light conditions. The tail width should then be adapted to the type of wave, on slow soft waves it can be kept wider to keep speed but on more powerfull fast waves a narrower tail is better because a wide tail would get bouncy and hard to turn. So we always need to be making compromises. When designing a light wind wave board for float n ride conditions, my first question is: Do you want to be able to uphaul? And if so, how good are you in uphauling? Some people can uphaul on a board that will sink under their weight but most people cant. What is the biggest and smallest sail you want to use on it and in which type of conditions? Beach breaks, point breaks, rips, wave type. Besides off course what counts is weight, skill level. Because long fins are more efficient (fins are indicated by length (or better said depth) is a more important indication for the amount of lift a fin will deliver, than area. Just like luff length is actually more important than sail surface) you need to counter balance the leverage of the fin. That is why the tail of slalom boards are wider than the planing area underneath. To be able to stand more outboard and counter balance the leverage of the fin. There needs to be a balance otherwise the board will ride too much on one rail or the other. With multifin wave boards with far less leverage of the fins (for a given area) and the need to be able to push on either rail when riding, the straps can and should be more inboard. Capiche? So what I said is nothing weird but is actually already widely used. Many people without a technical education, let alone a masters degree figured these basics already out a long time ago just by using common sense, trying and observing. But somehow because I said it, it is wrong????? Hahahaha.

It was the older version the 10.5
I've also used my Lt in small surf

i can't fault the Exocet, they def cover lighter winds better than a mini Simmons shape as they go upwind much better and initiate the wave easier. I'm just relaying my specific tastes when on the wave.
A better comparison would be windsup v Exocet and for that the Exocet hands down for windsurfing/wavesailing and sup if you want to surf as well as wavesail

Grantmac said..
It's gusty 5-6m conditions (I'm 95kg) where you need a bigger board to get through the lulls but it's either choppy windswell or cross chop on groundswell if that makes sense? Probably a place where a FSW makes more sense than a pure waveboard.
I have in the past used a windSUP on the lighter days and I may do that again.

Sorry for forgetting about this post. But if you want to stay with a regular shape (ie not a windsup or similar) and want to upsize it for better glide through lulls, I think the same thing applies for handling chop as on any style wave board. It is a bit hard to say exactly what makes a board handle chop though, but it it a fact that some boards just rides harder and some softer. What I have learned though, is that handling chop in super powered up conditions is not really the same as in low power conditions. For high power, chop handling comes a lot from the rocker and the general balance of the board, it it has to ride stable, be fast and free so that it can float over chop with the power on. Handling chop at lower speed and when less powered up rather has to do with the rails and boards with a bit of v helps to as do a bit of double concave up front. So a board with a relatively fast tail rocker, a v based bottom and softer rails (not just up front) will be the general recipe for a bord that both planes early but at the same time has a smooth way of gliding through the water.

Grantmac said..
You don't mention width, does that have a significant impact?
I consider my 85L 2017 Quantum to be excellent in chop and very powered up even though it's wider than other boards I've ridden in that size.

No, width is not as important. Some quite narrow board can be hard work in chop if they are "hard rides" in themselves. In particular if it is low speed planing threshold riding, width is generally not a problem. For wave boards, I like to tune the width to the wave riding speed (and the rider). If the wave riding speed is slower, I like a bit of more width so that the rider can have enough leverage to push against. All surface area create drag though, so a lot of width combined with a slower curvier rocker can be draggy and hard to keep on a plane. So upsized boards (relative a certain sailor weight) in most cases need faster rockers, which means you have to incorporate other shaping tricks to make them turn well.

On another note: I was talking to a sailing buddy the other day. We are both light (70-73 kg) and both tend to be on small boards, 70-79 liters. We have noticed that most our friends, even very, very good sailors, gradually have moved towards bigger boards relative their weights. And what we kind of sense now is that over 10 years of this development, some of these people seem to have been getting worse at getting going early and tend to turn to bigger and bigger boards for light wind. I don't know of this is good of bad, it's just an observation. Nowadays also quite big (relatively speaking) boards can turn really well. But I think this development is kind of general and that boards are becoming faster and faster rocker-wise as a result of it. For example I rode one of the new JP's. The absolute newest one, that just hit the chops. It has a VERY fast rocker to the point of pretty much being completely straight in the tail. But yet it turns well in a super controlled and yeas way with absolutely no tendency to stalling in the turn, which can be a problem with fast rockered boards. Quite fascinating, in fact.

Grantmac said..
This one:
www.nzsailing.com/exocet-windsup-wave-102-570651

Because I'm considering that version in the 9'3"

I've not seen that board before and surprised that it is very similar in shape as my custom windsup but mine doesn't have the step in the tail and is a touch wider. To be honest it's the most versatile board I have. For years was the only board I took camping. The windsup and a 5.6m sail. The whole family used it, catching waves, windsurfing etc. mine has a pretty heavy rocker. Slows it down a little but I'm ok with that.

on the stubby thing I'm convinced most stubby boards have the mast too far forward so you end up with a board with no nose and a whacked volume distribution that lacks ease of use. You need to set the mast at the rear of the track in light winds to balance the board. I've thrown the idea of mast track distance from tail out the window and set my track (and rocker) to mid point of the volume distribution.

I'm the ****est wave sailor on the planet and enjoy the windsup for the lightest winds. Kinda still need 7-10 knots or no mater the board things are very hard because there is no power to get over the white water.

Grantmac said..

Gestalt said..

Grantmac said..
This one:
www.nzsailing.com/exocet-windsup-wave-102-570651

Because I'm considering that version in the 9'3"

I've not seen that board before and surprised that it is very similar in shape as my custom windsup but mine doesn't have the step in the tail and is a touch wider. To be honest it's the most versatile board I have. For years was the only board I took camping. The windsup and a 5.6m sail. The whole family used it, catching waves, windsurfing etc. mine has a pretty heavy rocker. Slows it down a little but I'm ok with that.

on the stubby thing I'm convinced most stubby boards have the mast too far forward so you end up with a board with no nose and a whacked volume distribution that lacks ease of use. You need to set the mast at the rear of the track in light winds to balance the board. I've thrown the idea of mast track distance from tail out the window and set my track (and rocker) to mid point of the volume distribution.

I'm the ****est wave sailor on the planet and enjoy the windsup for the lightest winds. Kinda still need 7-10 knots or no mater the board things are very hard because there is no power to get over the white water.

Very interesting. I figure under 7kts I'll just grab a paddle.
Do you have footstraps on your custom?

I tried the SUP sailing route for a while, but ultimately decided it was too much of a compromise to try to both surf SUP and surf sail on the same board. If it's cross on or need to climb over white water to get out, can't beat the Exocet longboards (and I assume the new Breeze boards too). Cross off with a channel or really long period swell then a floaty waveboard with foot straps is my favorite. Can go stupid light and still use it under the right circumstances, but even then 7 knots is too light. Maybe lulls of 7 knots and average of >10 knots.
The pros are unrealistically better sailors than us average sailors, but here's a good example of how light regular gear can go in cross off. Look at how glassy that wave face is!
www.facebook.com/federicomorisio/videos/1231200941647473/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

Float and ride with a normal board (ca +15 litres).

That's about right for me.

Gestalt said..

on the stubby thing I'm convinced most stubby boards have the mast too far forward so you end up with a board with no nose and a whacked volume distribution that lacks ease of use. You need to set the mast at the rear of the track in light winds to balance the board. I've thrown the idea of mast track distance from tail out the window and set my track (and rocker) to mid point of the volume distribution.

I nowadays use the distance from the front strap front screw to the center of the mast track as my measurement of mast track position. Interestingly it varies by an absurd amount between brands. And it is an extremely important variable for the feel of the whole board. For example, a recent Quatro I checked cam in at 32cms and a recent JP at 37cms. This is a HUGE difference. The latest Simmer Fly (78) is at 32.

For my commercial boards, but even more so for my personal boards I have been decreasing this distance. My latest personal custom is at 29. Setting the mast foot that close toyou front foot will make you sail the rig more upright. A downside: your pretty much on the verge of catapulting quite often. An upside: the whole reaction of the rig becomes ultra fast.

Regarding your point: my latest board is also ultra thin in the tail. Normally my boards are very balances so that I can basically stand in the straps while sinking in a balanced way. By My latest boards is more or less a 78 liter board with 7 liters removed from the back strap and back. So it sinks INSTANTLY as soon as you loose your planing. When slogging you pretty much has to have one foot in front of the mast foot. Combined with a rocker curve the requires you to really get back on the board to plane early, this makes the board kind of challenging. But it can be done...

Watching videos of little guys in side off conditions makes me want to move somewhere warmer and cut my calories by half. You can get by with a much smaller quiver.
Not happening before retirement unfortunately.

martR said..
Looking good Taavi.
Always like your video's and the camera angle except for your head in the picture... it distract a lot. I always put my hand on the right side of the screen watching your movies hahaaha. Cant you cut that part off?

Conditions also look good, were is that spot Taavi? Looking very nice.
Enjoy your video's a lot, especially when there is no wind

@martR
Slightly off topic but thanks! Haha, that's an easy and clever way, or perhaps just moving the window partially out of the computer screen would also work. The thing is, even a pretty "microscopic" change in the camera direction changes what's captured, and pretty much everything like how you wear the helmet or is there a hood under the helmet or not, etc. changes things. I should probably check every time before going to the water what ends up in the frame this particular time, which I sadly never do. I have found that when I think about filming too much, it makes my riding worse, and it's much easier to enjoy the day if using the camera is totally frictionless. And lately I have only spent around 20-30 min (mostly thanks to the davinci resolve's keyboard centric workflow) to throw these clips together, usually right after a session. Spending any more than that does not feel right, although it could improve the content.

The light wind day was in Yzerfontein, Cape Town. And the "slightly windier" clip at home was made here, sadly there has been hardly any windsurfing conditions lately - in our home spots I have only windsurfed some 3 times this year which is crazy : ( Hope you all get to ride much much more.

www.google.com/maps/@58.9442369,22.048927,457m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

I haven't had a chance to try the Exocet WindSUP in surf yet but the 26th is looking promising.
However I have taken it out on days where I might have been able to plane half the time with a 105L FSW (I'm 93kg plus a thick wetsuit). It probably planes in similar wind but is obviously far more comfortable between the puffs. It's no freeride but it sort of carves a gybe and will plane upwind similar to a waveboard or grind it's way upwind even better.
Interestingly it seems to have very little volume forward of the mast with everything under your feet, I'm uphauling with 90% of my weight on the back foot to keep the nose from sinking. Even a little power you can practically slog in the straps and gybes are dead easy, the tail just doesn't stall. Hopefully the low nose volume doesn't impact climbing white water.
One aspect of the completely flat deck is it's pretty hard on the ankles, specifically my Achilles tendon feels it after blasting. Could be I'm running very marginal fin sizes for wind use which requires a lot of toe pressure. I've got some 10cm k4 shark asymmetrical fronts and a pretty old ~18cm rear of some sort. Very tempted to try some of my quad rears in the front like perhaps a set of 15cm K4 Stubbies then drop the rear fin size.

Hopefully I can update in a few days.

First off I'm a beginner wave sailor, I can't quick tack and I've never been on a real side-off wave. Most of my experience is with windswell. This is the only spot I've sailed with proper groundswell and it's the break I bought this board for. That's a river mouth with a point to the left where surfers hang out. Waves were 2-3m faces which doesn't show well in the picture. Water and air were both around 7C, warm for December and wind was side-on 8-14 with the occasional gust to 20. I rigged a 5.3 Simmer BT.

The board absolutely trucks up wind, enough stability to uphaul between swells and the wide nose climbs white water nicely. At times there was almost enough wind to make my 105l FSW work but it would have been stressful for not a lot more on the wave performance. In the lulls no comparison.
True slog and ride with the front foot only going into the strap on the drop, didn't actually use the rear strap but unlike my previous Hypernut windSUP this one doesn't need a huge stomp across the board to initiate a turn so I expect I'll use it in the future. The SUP DNA becomes really obvious on a small wave, even with absolutely no pressure in the sail you've got the glide to make turns.

I'm pretty happy with the purchase so far.

thedoor said..

Grantmac said..

First off I'm a beginner wave sailor, I can't quick tack and I've never been on a real side-off wave. Most of my experience is with windswell. This is the only spot I've sailed with proper groundswell and it's the break I bought this board for. That's a river mouth with a point to the left where surfers hang out. Waves were 2-3m faces which doesn't show well in the picture. Water and air were both around 7C, warm for December and wind was side-on 8-14 with the occasional gust to 20. I rigged a 5.3 Simmer BT.

The board absolutely trucks up wind, enough stability to uphaul between swells and the wide nose climbs white water nicely. At times there was almost enough wind to make my 105l FSW work but it would have been stressful for not a lot more on the wave performance. In the lulls no comparison.
True slog and ride with the front foot only going into the strap on the drop, didn't actually use the rear strap but unlike my previous Hypernut windSUP this one doesn't need a huge stomp across the board to initiate a turn so I expect I'll use it in the future. The SUP DNA becomes really obvious on a small wave, even with absolutely no pressure in the sail you've got the glide to make turns.

I'm pretty happy with the purchase so far.

you went with the 9'3"?

I definitely agree with the glide factor from a windsup. Seems like an under-rated benefit

Since it was an older model all they had was the 9'3", I did get an excellent price (half of retail).
I think the longer ones would offer more volume ahead of the mast and I doubt I'd feel the difference on a wave.

I have slid my 2 bolt mast base as far back as possible and overall I'd say that improved the board. Unsure if I'll try a 1 bolt since I've had rig separations with them before. I think the mast track being 6-10cm further back could be good. I'm wondering if they choose the mast base position from their similar sized freeride rather than centering on the buoyancy.
That said I took it for a flattish blasting session and threw in a 30cm freewave fin with 10cm fronts. Pretty huge difference in planing performance so I think I was running a marginal setup in terms of area.
Of course it also was stiffer than I want to deal with. So the next plan is to try some larger fronts and a smaller or equal size trailer.
No waves for the foreseeable future unfortunately.