not quite feeling / looking right - advice needed

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not quite feeling / looking right - advice needed

> 10 years ago

General Gps & Speed Waves Foiling Gear Reviews Lost & Found WA NSW QLD SA VIC TAS

K Dog

VIC

1847 posts

K Dog

VIC, 1847 posts

17 Jan 2011 3:58pm

Hi all,

I have just clocked over 1 year since starting windsurfing and very much a work in progress.

Wonder if the experienced old salts and pros wouldn't mind checking out the video below to see what I am doing wrong. Would appreciate any feedback.

Things don't feel quite "natural" in my position and the balance of the rig.

Here's the vid:

So far, my windsurf buddies have told me the following and it sounds pretty helpful - just trying to get a few more opinions from the brains trust of seabreeze:

According to Jem Hall.....

Your harness lines are too far forward as the centre of power on your sail is further back these should be moved back also, looks like you are using your arm more than you should to correct this. The sail should be perfectly balanced and you should be able to let go for a brief moment with either hand the there should be no change in effort on either side.

Your lines are too short (bent arms).

Your arms are wide apart and should be closer together nearer the straps at no more than shoulder width.

Cheers,

Jez

Another:

I’m by no ways an expert but here’s my thoughts:-

1) Try spreading your harness lines apart a little, it gives you a bit more room for error around the sails centre of effort. Once you know the sail really well you can make them closer together again.

2) I’ve never looked at myself, would be interesting to see! It doesn’t look like you’re sheeted in enough, which I suspect is because your lines are a little too far forward. As Jem Hall says, you should be able to let go of the boom and the sail should stay where it is fully powered up. That’s the test I always make with my harness lines, sail out and get planning then try and let go of the boom. Would be interesting to see what the dudes on Seabreeze have to say????

1) One other good tip someone told me was to try and look around the front of the mast, this makes you put on loads of mast foot pressure. This is especially useful when trying to get upwind.

James.

Windxtasy

4019 posts

Windxtasy

WA, 4019 posts

17 Jan 2011 1:54pm

I agree with Jem Hall.
Firstly get those harness lines positioned correctly.
If in doubt stand the sail up on the beach. If the lines are balanced correctly you should be able to hold the sail stable by holding the harness line only.

Longer lines and straighter arms/legs will help you push more weight into the harness and you will get more control and be able to move your arms closer together. Try moving them in one handwidth for a start. (This is one I am working on atm)

Zed

1274 posts

Zed

WA, 1274 posts

17 Jan 2011 1:57pm

Your harness lines might be OK. If they were in the wrong place you'd know straight away. Well I know straight away! You should be able to sail for a few seconds hands free if your harness lines are positioned correctly. If they are too far back you'll feel the front of the boon pulling away from you and vice-versa for the back - which could explain why you're not sheeting in enough? But it feels pretty odd when harness lines are out, so I thought it would be obvious? Short lines are just a preference & I use the smallest ones you can buy - I guess it depends on how long your arms are. It does look as though you are bending your knees too much, boom height too low? Tinker around with a few things & see what makes a difference. It's probably a combination of a number of things.

sboardcrazy

NSW

8334 posts

sboardcrazy

NSW, 8334 posts

17 Jan 2011 5:14pm

Got any photos of you sailing taken from the shore.That would show your stance and allow the 'experts ' to give advice easier..

K Dog

VIC

1847 posts

K Dog

VIC, 1847 posts

17 Jan 2011 5:35pm

I am starting to think its got to be the harness lines position on the boom.

I have the boom right up around my shoulders in light wind and just around my under arms in every other case - I think that works okay for now.

Sorry Sboardcrazy - no other pics.

Zed - how do you ride with shorter lines without getting all bent up?

Will be trying the balance test next time I am out - get those lines perfectly positioned to get the sail winded-up and stable, and a handwidth apart.

sboardcrazy

NSW

8334 posts

sboardcrazy

NSW, 8334 posts

17 Jan 2011 5:54pm

K Dog said...

I am starting to think its got to be the harness lines position on the boom.

I have the boom right up around my shoulders in light wind and just around my under arms in every other case - I think that works okay for now.

Sorry Sboardcrazy - no other pics.

Zed - how do you ride with shorter lines without getting all bent up?

Will be trying the balance test next time I am out - get those lines perfectly positioned to get the sail winded-up and stable, and a handwidth apart.

By the postion of your rear hand it looks to me as if they both need to be further back..or at least the rear one back about a hands width but as the others have said if you can rig where you can test the rig in clear wind check the balance point..From my limited experience I'd go for longer lines.Easier to lean out against them + more time to react..

firiebob

3182 posts

firiebob

WA, 3182 posts

17 Jan 2011 3:38pm

Ok, harness lines are a good distance apart but this makes trim more sensitive, which is good when every things right, but not when not. When you do sheet in the lines are pulling back at an angle, at a guess I'd move lines back along boom, sheeting in should be easy. Also I see harness line loose, not enough or no weight in them most of the time, might have to raise boom or just lean back. Is mast base center of track, good place to start, then juggle boom height and line position to suit. I like long harness lines, I'm 6'1" and use 28s thinking of 30s, short lines rooted my elbow.

Get advice at your local, let one of the experienced guys to take it for a spin and adjust it, then change it yourself to suit, we're all different.

Hope some of that made sense, in a hurry to shoot off.

Bender

2236 posts

Bender

WA, 2236 posts

17 Jan 2011 4:11pm

Here the one tips that improved my comfort level. in relation to harness line position

Guy Cribbs method.

Place your back harness line 1/3 back along the boom(yes get out the tape measure) and the front one bout a hand to a hand and half width in front.

it works a treat

www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Harness%20Lines.pdf

Zed

1274 posts

Zed

WA, 1274 posts

17 Jan 2011 4:12pm

I'm 5'8, but then my mates who are 5'11 use 18s.. I'm guessing if you're tall though, 18s would be too short?

KenHo

NSW

1353 posts

KenHo

NSW, 1353 posts

17 Jan 2011 7:51pm

Simple trick for setting harness lines from the MP clinic.
Pick the rig up by the boom in the centre of your lines and see if it balances.
If not, find that point of balance, and then space your lines a hand-span or so on either side.
When sailing, you should be able to sail for a few secs hands free, as noted above, or otherwise "play the piano", meaning you only need finger-tip pressure to control the rig.

djdojo

VIC

1614 posts

djdojo

VIC, 1614 posts

17 Jan 2011 11:28pm

1" less outhaul
0.75" more downhaul
Harness lines back 2"
Mastfoot forward 1"
Boom up 1.5"

Your lines are a fine length and your stance is appropriate for how your gear is tuned. I suspect your stance will sort itself out when you make the above changes.

Explanation:

Your sail is too flat at the boom and not twisting enough at the head. Hence you aren't able to sheet right in and the top of the rig is pushing you around.

You don't have enough back foot pressure. Raising your boom and shifting your mast foot forward, combined with moving your harness lines back and the previous rig changes will put more load on your back leg and create more fore-aft stability as you can swing more weight forward through the mast foot.

StakaFlaka

25 posts

StakaFlaka

WA, 25 posts

17 Jan 2011 9:22pm

hi kdog this might help
sail=5.7 firefly
98l freestyle
im 6'2 have boom at sholder height and 32' lines
i think your lines are way to far forward
sail seems its allways sheeted out
to much outhall

Corkers

NSW

154 posts

Corkers

NSW, 154 posts

18 Jan 2011 10:58am

Hi K dog,

Im no pro.... went to fiji and did some sailing with Warren over there, he gave me very simple tips that made a massive difference to my sailing..

1) try and straighten that front leg, seams difficult to do but once you got it it feels great
2) bring hands closer together on boom for more power
3) keep front arm straight and locked for more power and control. Sailing with under grip (palm up) with front arm will help to assist this

hope this helps

jermaldan

VIC

1572 posts

jermaldan

VIC, 1572 posts

18 Jan 2011 4:03pm

Dude, you need to watch beginner to winner another 5 times like me.

Jem Hall knows his S**t!

Trousers

565 posts

Trousers

SA, 565 posts

18 Jan 2011 5:15pm

sboardcrazy said...
By the postion of your rear hand it looks to me as if they both need to be further back.

+1. i reckon you're sailing too much back handed, and need to have the harness lines back (or raise your boom a bit). you also seem to be squatting right over the tail; which is fine if you're going downwind, the angles a bit hard to tell, but i suspect you aren't. stand more upright, and you'll have more leverage. i try to get my stance to look like a '7'

TristanF

VIC

230 posts

TristanF

VIC, 230 posts

18 Jan 2011 6:55pm

Agree with the harness lines being further back, which will then help you adjust your stance to:
1. Get your legs straighter and your backside out over the water
2. Point your back toes to keep the board flat.

keef

NSW

2016 posts

keef

NSW, 2016 posts

18 Jan 2011 7:01pm

K Dog if you have only been sailing for 1 year your doing fine, one thing i did notice is your harness lines are crooked

mr love

VIC

2421 posts

mr love

VIC, 2421 posts

18 Jan 2011 7:11pm

A bit hard to tell but I would set up the Kult with a little less outhaul and a lttle more downhaul. Have the sail fuller down low and more twisted in the head. This will allow you to lock your stance a bit more as the rig won't pull you around as much.

KenHo

NSW

1353 posts

KenHo

NSW, 1353 posts

18 Jan 2011 8:34pm

"7" is out, toilet seat is in.

Trousers said...

sboardcrazy said...
By the postion of your rear hand it looks to me as if they both need to be further back.

jermaldan

VIC

1572 posts

jermaldan

VIC, 1572 posts

18 Jan 2011 10:12pm

mr love said...

A bit hard to tell but I would set up the Kult with a little less outhaul and a lttle more downhaul. Have the sail fuller down low and more twisted in the head. This will allow you to lock your stance a bit more as the rig won't pull you around as much.

But Mr. Love, surely you would recognize a 7m KA Kruze when you see one...;)

pweedas

4642 posts

pweedas

WA, 4642 posts

18 Jan 2011 7:40pm

Hey K Dog.
Do you have the same problem with smaller sails?
I find that when I use a bigger sail which is towards the top of the recommended sail size for the board, I also find it hard to get comfortable. It just doesn't balance out right no matter what I do. It's sailable but not comfortable.

If I drop the sail size down to between 5 and 6 metres, which is well inside the recommended sail size, it all trims up nicely.

sideskirt

328 posts

sideskirt

328 posts

18 Jan 2011 7:57pm

I experienced great reduction in number of spinouts (practically 0 - just started using a small fin) when moving my harnes lines back.

mr love

VIC

2421 posts

mr love

VIC, 2421 posts

18 Jan 2011 11:51pm

Got me, but way before my time!!!!!

sboardcrazy

NSW

8334 posts

sboardcrazy

NSW, 8334 posts

19 Jan 2011 10:20am

pweedas said...

Hey K Dog.
Do you have the same problem with smaller sails?
I find that when I use a bigger sail which is towards the top of the recommended sail size for the board, I also find it hard to get comfortable. It just doesn't balance out right no matter what I do. It's sailable but not comfortable.

If I drop the sail size down to between 5 and 6 metres, which is well inside the recommended sail size, it all trims up nicely.

I find smaller sails more comfortable..

K Dog

VIC

1847 posts

K Dog

VIC, 1847 posts

19 Jan 2011 10:50am

Thanks all for your responses. I am going to move those lines further down and do the balance test this Saturday (hopefully ready for the Elwood race). Try less outhaul and put a bit more downhaul on (downhaul is currently to fact. spec).

My lines are pretty cr@p - adjustable ones that are all bent and cr@p.... but have some new ones in the post....

I was using 24" lines and they felt way to small.... now looking around 30" on my cr@ppy adjustable ones, but the new ones on the way adjust easier and should allow me to experiment more with tuning and getting it right.

Will also move the boom a bit higher up and try and work on the front leg being straighter.

I think I do need a smaller fin, get spin outs all the time, especially when I am putting max weight out - but could be down to harness lines location as well possibly.

My smaller 6.2m NP Crossover does feel more comfortable than the KA Kruzer - however the KA (Courtesy of RPS) being all new and shinny and powerful rates as my fave

I do feel my backhand is doing a lot of the work sheeting in, actually all of it, so closer hand distance should help this along.

Thanks again all.

Kurt

PS - Stakaflaka - cool vid!

Bender

2236 posts

Bender

WA, 2236 posts

19 Jan 2011 9:01am

K Dog said...

Thanks all for your responses. I am going to move those lines further down and do the balance test this Saturday (hopefully ready for the Elwood race). Try less outhaul and put a bit more downhaul on (downhaul is currently to fact. spec).

My lines are pretty cr@p - adjustable ones that are all bent and cr@p.... but have some new ones in the post....

I was using 24" lines and they felt way to small.... now looking around 30" on my cr@ppy adjustable ones, but the new ones on the way adjust easier and should allow me to experiment more with tuning and getting it right.

Will also move the boom a bit higher up and try and work on the front leg being straighter.

I think I do need a smaller fin, get spin outs all the time, especially when I am putting max weight out - but could be down to harness lines location as well possibly.

My smaller 6.2m NP Crossover does feel more comfortable than the KA Kruzer - however the KA (Courtesy of RPS) being all new and shinny and powerful rates as my fave

I do feel my backhand is doing a lot of the work sheeting in, actually all of it, so closer hand distance should help this along.Thanks again all.

Kurt

i think you have just hit the nail on the head. Having you lines too far forward loads up your back hand. This then loads up your back leg. This causes the fin to spin out as there is too much sideways pressure on the fin.

When you have the lines set in the right spot (as per Guy Cribb) you should be able to sail with your back hand off the boom as there is no pressure because your harness/body is sheeting the sail in.

This in turn transfers all that power down the mast and into the board making you go faster and pressing the board to the water giving you more control. Thats why when things start getting a bit out of control its not good to sheet out as you loose all the mast foot pressure and you end up tail walking.

Mobydisc

NSW

9029 posts

Mobydisc

NSW, 9029 posts

19 Jan 2011 1:29pm

Last year I purchased the Cribb Sheet with the piece of elastic with the little black dot. I placed the harness lines where the black dot advised. I found I could not get comfortable with the lines in this position.

All the pressure was on my front arm and if I let go with the front hand the sail would fall to leewards. So I moved the lines a fair bit forward and it was better. Even so my back hand was infront of my back harness line.

Any ideas as a friend has said I have my lines too far forward? Last sail I had I moved the boom up a fair way so its about nose high. That felt good but I also moved the mast base back too.

I think my lines are about 71 cms.

Squish

NSW

124 posts

Squish

NSW, 124 posts

19 Jan 2011 1:46pm

G'day K Dog

You are right with armpit to shoulder height for booms.
Work on balancing your harnesses lines first before tackling other problems.

Balancing Harness lines, Hope this helps
In either beach or water start position, hold your sail as though you are sheeted in, & position your hands so that there is equal pull on each arm.
Take note of your hand positions.
Move your harness lines to the mid point of your hand positions.
Go for a blast and fine tune the harness line positions (usually 1-2cm).

Pull on back hand / spin outs = move harness line back
Pull on front hand = move harness line forward.

PS Adjust your harness lines before every session.
PSS On your video take note of your hand positions vs your harness line positions.
PSSS Hopefully your local spot isn't sheltered at the shore, as it is easier to balance your harness lines on the beach, then in the water.

Squish

KenHo

NSW

1353 posts

KenHo

NSW, 1353 posts

19 Jan 2011 3:39pm

See my post above re getting the lines in a position where the rig is nicely balanced. If it's good enough for Matt Pritchard............
I've tried the 1/3 rule too, and it was a foul position, way too far back.
I balance my lines so I can sail hands-free, or with "piano player" pressure.

Mobydisc said...

Last year I purchased the Cribb Sheet with the piece of elastic with the little black dot. I placed the harness lines where the black dot advised. I found I could not get comfortable with the lines in this position.

All the pressure was on my front arm and if I let go with the front hand the sail would fall to leewards. So I moved the lines a fair bit forward and it was better. Even so my back hand was infront of my back harness line.

Any ideas as a friend has said I have my lines too far forward? Last sail I had I moved the boom up a fair way so its about nose high. That felt good but I also moved the mast base back too.

I think my lines are about 71 cms.

K Dog

VIC

1847 posts

K Dog

VIC, 1847 posts

19 Jan 2011 5:47pm

KenHo said...

Simple trick for setting harness lines from the MP clinic.
Pick the rig up by the boom in the centre of your lines and see if it balances.
If not, find that point of balance, and then space your lines a hand-span or so on either side.
When sailing, you should be able to sail for a few secs hands free, as noted above, or otherwise "play the piano", meaning you only need finger-tip pressure to control the rig.

So you'd do this once fully rigged on the beach? Like hang your sail by the boom and just adjust till it sits balanced?

KenHo

NSW

1353 posts

KenHo

NSW, 1353 posts

19 Jan 2011 9:27pm

Yeah, that's the idea.
Once rigged, picking the boom up with finger-tips to check the balance.
Matt related that a student had suggested it to him and that he found it a good technique.
It's best done in no wind, which can be the tricky bit.

K Dog said...

So you'd do this once fully rigged on the beach? Like hang your sail by the boom and just adjust till it sits balanced?

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