Well or so I hope :) Sailmaker huge noobie alert here.
Learning lots so far, including about sewing machines, thread, sail cloth, etc. Lately, thinking about draft design, outline is figured out mostly as well as sail sizes.
It looked like sails had three stages of evolution:
1. Straight mast, triangular sails.
2. Curved mast with flat panel sails, no tension at the clew.
3. Curved mast, seam shape, batten rotation and lots of clew tension.
The goal would be to be somewhere between 2 and 3 for a first. I'm not sure how big of a draft I should use with sailflow as any material will be stretchy and create it's own draft with wind pressure. Batten tension and profile will also affect profile.
Goal is 5 batten super light in the hands, stable, durable. I like a wide mast sleeve to let sail breeze and regular downhaul tension.
Suggestions on regards to draft depth? I'll use my favorite sail of all time, 100% fun, 1000% solid, the 1996 north zeta!
Regarding stage 2: The clew is the bit at the rear, at the end of the boom. 1980s sails had lots of tension there, and no downhaul tension. The mast bend was caused by outhaul alone.
There is lots of info out there if you look for it. Ezzy's webpage is good. Also David Ezzy designed your beloved Zeta.
Someone recommended to me, that I deconstruct a sail before making a sail. I got a seam ripper and took apart an old Pryde sail and a relatively recent Gaastra IQ. Very different. The Pryde had a lot less curve in the luff panel and the curve was continuous from tack to head, so it was not as rotational. The Gaastra had a lot of curve from tack to second batten, but then straight to the head. Neither sail has any seam shaping of note.
Like building boards there are a few BIG design features, for boards rocker and outline have a huge effect on the outcome of the board. For sails it appears luff curve, seam shaping dictate the draft and then all you need to sort out is the template / outline.
I have just cut out the panels for my first sail. And will start the seam sticking later this week once I have cut out all the clew patches and split tape. I have to be honest I have received a lot of advice from sailmakers new and old before I have go this far, and I am starting with another sailmakers pattern for Mk1. So I am cheating a lot with the design. But if you have a sail you love, but is no longer sea worthy, my recommendation is to take it apart and copy it.
I also recommend you contact local sail makers. They are generally very willing to talk about how to make sails, it is their passion after all.
Have fun.
Yes my advice as mentioned would be to get an old windsurfer one design sail or similar, unpick all the stitching, pull it apart and copy it exactly, It will give you the basic skills of cutting panels, taping them together and then learning to sew.
I learnt by doing repairs, then cutting new sails, then was shown step by step joining panels in the correct order and sewing it all together in the correct order.
It does take skill so don't be put off if you forget a few things and mess up, I was taught by one of the best in the biz and still learn new things every time i sit at a machine, and i have worked on a hell of a lot of sails, and messed up my very first repair horribly..lol..
This is the first sail I made from scratch, well I didn't design it, I started after we plotted it out, It is a 4 batten BLADE 4.2m with a longer boom length, I still have it in my sail collection.
I only had one attempt at sail making, that convinced me that my DIY skills were stretched a tad to far, since them I've left it to the professional to make my sails.
I hope you have a more positive experience.
No no no
ask a bunch of silly questions here that don't really relate to actual sailmaking - rather just question existing expert knowledge, then don't come back here. Seems to be the go
??
@ P.C_simpson
WOW that looks incredible!
My first sail currently looks nothing like that! Ha ha ha. Oh well.
Did you muck about with seam shaping?
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
No no no
ask a bunch of silly questions here that don't really relate to actual sailmaking - rather just question existing expert knowledge, then don't come back here. Seems to be the go
??
I like the way people who have never made a sail tell you about how they want the draft and that cloth will be stretchy.
Monofilm especially X-ply doesn't give at all.
if you buy all the parts, even from a wholesale place, it usually works out about the same as buying one new from a shop, you will however, have to buy two spools of thread and the sewing machine itself.
The sail you will make will be a one off for sure but what you as a maker, actually make wont be anywhere near as good as a shop one thats had years of R&D .
It is nice to finish a sail and then use it, and if it works out and is stable then you have done a good job and it can be satisfying.
Select to expand quoteOverner said..
@ P.C_simpson
WOW that looks incredible!
My first sail currently looks nothing like that! Ha ha ha. Oh well.
Did you muck about with seam shaping?
Na that was all up to Ben, i just suggested a longer boom length to make it a little less twitchy than the production boom length on the old 4.2's
Picking a sail apart is definitely the best way. Eeesh I don't want to do that on my zetas... but I could restitch after? I want to rework the bottom pocket but have nearly identical mast curve.
There are really sails out there with no seam shape today??? Surprises me. Well laying down the zetas look utterly flat.
Thats a nice looking blade there, how did it sail?
At first I'll be using recycled materials.
Does any of you have sailflow experience? It can cut panels for us. Oh any recommendations on reinforcement strings? Ultimately I want a pvc window.
Good on you for trying, but do it for fun, not for saving money as the materials are expensive and the initial sail takes a lot of work building templates.
Your difficult part will be the head and foot, most domestic machines don't have the power to sew the multi layers for strength at these areas. You can go lighter her but with the chance of ripping out the eyes.Every panel has some kind of seam shape, that's how you lock the draft so you get stability.
PVC windows stretch and distort the sail, used to use a product called Vimar, was PVC with a layer of Mylar bonded to it to stop stretch, this is just Xply.
This is my light weight 4.2, more old school as sets without a huge amount of down haul. Would probably be called a windfoil sail now. It looks higher aspect than it actually is, just the way I took the photo.
Yes most the work will be me learning sail design and the use of sailflow as a tool :D !
Is it possible to make a small scale version to visualize things? Otherwise I can go dumpster diving to play with scrap materials as I sharpen my skills, wasting only time and thread pretty much, and maybe double sided tape?
Oh, I'd love a sail made of dacron but unsure of the achievable sail twist and overall sail reactivity?
Just find an old sail and pull it apart. This will show you where the designer put the seam shape and how much. The change the size, eg turn a 6 into a 4.5, cost you nothing, just some seam tape and thread.
Is there a good online shop with sailmaking supplies? I don't seem to find a place with cloth etc. on offer.
Select to expand quoteZeeGerman said..
Is there a good online shop with sailmaking supplies? I don't seem to find a place with cloth etc. on offer.
In the us there's sailrite.
Thanks for the tip!
Yes, they've got a wide choice of thngs and their sewing machines look good also.
They don't really offer the sort of sailcloth you would use when making a windsurfing sail unless you want to make it from transparent ripstop all the way though. It seems impossible to find a supplier for this, apart from the Duotone Shop, where you can get sailcloth suitable for their own brand sails.
I'm making a "grocery" list and in the middle of researching what to use, along with dacron, they have 4mil xply, 7mil mono, and laminate sailcloth. But also tapes, thread, needles, etc. There's also eBay and Amazon. What are you looking for?
Hi Manuel 7,
First of all Industrial sewing machine is very important for sail making. Get help from professional sewing machine sellers. New machine is not important you can buy second hand. My Pfaff 138 can sew 10 layers of dacron plus 2 layers of monofilm plus 6 layers of double tape at the same time. If you buy weak machine forget the sail making. Second of all start with 4 or 5 sq m. I support your project.
Bye Melih...
Thank you!
I forgot I should have enough leftover sails to make one sail! Never realized how precious battens, pulleys or mast protectors could be!
So I need needles, thread, double sided tape, dacron tape (to cover sharp edges?) and I think I may be able to salvage the rest.
For now, I'm making a small scale paper version. 1/5th.
Anyone has constant curve mast data?
What about increased downhaul tension, how does it help the shape? Any impact on integrity when caught in the waves?
Can I base my work on this? I mean 30kg is average? When to choose to design for more or less?
Design your sail for the mast you have.
Mast bend is a major factor in final sail shape.
But I think only a minor factor in the way the sail works, as long as the sails end up the same shape.
In other words a single sail will rig differently one each mast bend. and will handle differently on the water.
But 3 sails deigned to have the same shape on there designated mast, will behave similarly on the water.
The stiffer mast will probably work better for heavy sailors and the flexy top better for lighter sailors, and maybe other factors I'm not aware of.
But for your first sail, I wouldn't worry about it. The final shape is what will affect the handling, not so much how you achieve it.
The cynic in me thinks curve is merely a marketing ploy, at one stage NP and Gastra went in opposite directions, so you couldn't use NP masts with Gastra sails and vice versa, and then over the years things change. Was this so you had to buy new masts with new sails, and get locked in to one manufacturer? (I don't know, but I only buy sails that rig on constant curve masts, because that's what I have)
A dead flat sail unrigged, gets all it's shape from the difference between mast curve and luff curve. So mastbend is critical to sail shape. Downhaul determines when the mast achieves the ideal curve. If you want a lot of skin tension for sail stability you need more luff curve.
Seam shaping relies less on mast bend for shape, and allows for less mast/batten tension if you have camber inducers. and if no camber inducers allows the sail to turn on earlier.
So you need to work out what qualities you want in a sail, then figure out how to get it.
Thanks for the additional input!
Yesterday got a nice session with 4.2 zeta and was amazed with how well the sail worked out again. So light, so easy, stable but alive, goes fast and planes well.
I went over and checked/measured the 4.7, the way the panels are laid out, I don't believe there's any seam shaping whatsoever? Materials stretches across several panels with no cuts. Even vertical seams seem shape free.
I think it gets its shape on luff curve and batten taper & tension alone. Now this would make things easier for sure. Still I would like a bit more shape in both bottom battens. I need to try says my significant other!
A quick update:
Plotted out my 4.7, took for.e.v.e.r! But it's near perfect. Next will be design updates.
Received my machine it's capable of 6 maybe 7mm wide triple stich. It seems that most sails are 8mm and up to 9!
So I was thinking about using two rows of stitches with a lighter V69 thread to substitute the single row wider V92 stitches. Sounds good or 6mm is good enough or does it depend on materials as well?
