Looking at trying to maximise my TOW on Moreton Bay.

So what would plane earlier under my 75kg?
- an IMCO style race board
- a formula board
- a SUP with mast track

Which one would work best with a 7.5 freeride sail?

Would the long race board make a better board for general bashing around the bay in lighter breezes than the formula? (my impression is that it would)

How much better would these be than my current 115 litre freeride (Exo Scross) at getting planing sooner? (I think I can get going in about 13 kts with the 7.5 maybe slightly less)

Would my 7.5 freeride sail pull my arms out at sub-planing speeds on a long board?

A plane

2010 model Starboard Formula boards have a minimum recommended sail size of 7.5, so this size will work. On my 85% width-sized formula board, I regularly run a sail size 1.5m under the recommended size and sail comfortably. I use a 62cm fin and will plane in an accurately-measured 10 knots using the 7.5 sail, although I weigh about 80 kg. I found that a normal 70cm fin has too much drag at this low wind speed and provides no benefit with this sail.

A 2nd-hand formula board should be fairly cheap but they do take a bit of getting used to (you will probably have to get adjustable harness lines and use an adjustable outhaul to maximise the use of the sail). For gybes, go W-I-D-E.

The boards are cumbersome on land and take up a ship load of space on a car or van. Having said that, they are also planing machines on the water.

Can't agree with Al: at low wind speeds, Formula/85% Formula are much easier to get onto a plane (for normal people) and they are much easier to uphaul. However, if the wind speed rises to say, 13 kts, a DSB comes into its own. On the other hand, if the wind dies, the feeling of having such a wide board to get you home on is very reassuring.

With regard to the type of sail, a board does not know the difference between a race/ freeride etc, so no worries here.

With regard to arm pulling at sub planing speed, no. With adjustable harness lines, you can hook in even at sub-planing speed and take the load off your arms.

Can't comment on the IMCO or SUP, but perhaps others can.

Hope this helps.

This is not a serious answer , because I don't have one, but a 4 letter word beginning with "K" and ending in "ITE" would do the trick.

A good jet-ski to do some tow-ins ??

Doesn't SUP stand for "Substitute for an Un-inflatable Person" ??

I suspect that you just have winter desperation syndrome. I was at Surf FX the other day looking at massive boards for the same reason, when I found out about the Maui trip.
I quickly decided to spend the money on a trip rather than a board.
They are doing very cheap packages to LHI at present, which looks pretty nice, if a little chilly.

Mobydisc said...
However being able to plane in 8 knot winds is really inviting too. But you need a fairly big sail, something over 9 square meters.

indeed... probably more like 11m, for 8kn of normal gusty wind (ie: varies by say 2kn)

a formula board with a good 70cm fin and an 8.5 will start planing "when pumped" at 8 knots with a heavyweight person. with a 7.5 i'd guess planing would be more around 10knots.

a 70kg person will get the same setup going around 6 knots and flat water just makes it easier.

from my point of view.

the difference between the sup and the formula is the same as wave versus slalom respectively. so it depends on what you like to do.

raceboards will cover almost no wind but doesn't have the speed rush that formula has. a formula board off the plane is difficult to get upwind on.

raceboard is easier to sail in chop and stronger winds than the formula board and the formula board is more fun in ocean swell but hits it's comfort range around 18 knots.

for sail size, the 7.5 is a fairly good size for a longboard. anything between 7.5-9 seems to be the best.

formula will take 7m and up no problems at all.

sup with a mast track is not good. they are typically built like surfboards. a kona 10.5 or kinetic energy (nxs sup/windsurer) would be a better choice as they are built stronger and can be wave sailed.

also cost wise. the formula requires a fairly decent outlay with fins. the sup just needs any old wave fin.

i've been down this track numerous times and really can't say which is better. only that if you want a board that can handle anything, anywhere, anytime the sup style board is the choice but can be boring sailing back and forth.

So what I'm getting is:

a) A long/race board isn't going to plane any sooner than what I have now but will be better to sail in sub planing conditions.

b) a formula board will plane earlier but is crap in sub-planing conditions and way expensive.

c) SUPs probably have too much "surfboard" in them to be good sailers.

ikw777 said...

So what I'm getting is:

a) A long/race board isn't going to plane any sooner than what I have now but will be better to sail in sub planing conditions.

b) a formula board will plane earlier but is crap in sub-planing conditions and way expensive.

c) SUPs probably have too much "surfboard" in them to be good sailers.

I would get a formula board,you will be surprised how much use you get out of it.
2nd hand you can pick them up cheap and as it is your light wind option you do not need anything fancy.
Also you may find that you may be able to pick up cheap larger sails down the track which will work well with the formula board.
I have slalom and formula gear and get the use of both regularly

For 5-15knots winds I've tried two different setups

1) 8.5m2 twin cam sail with a free-formula (i.e. width=87cm, Vol=155)

2) 8.5m2 twin cam sail with a raceboard

I've sailed them on both Moreton Bay and Port Phillip Bay.

Board choice depends on what type of sailing you want to do. In these winds I tend to do tours and for this I find the raceboard is better suited. The raceboard also gets away from the must get planing frustrations of fickle winds. It's quite comfortable off the plane particularly when you rail the board to windward i.e. in straps and harness but not planing. The narrow tail width and smaller fin means I find the raceboard easier to handle in higher winds. So overall I prefer the versatility and different style of sailing the raceboard offers.

If interested I've posted some more info and photos here
http://www.lbwindsurfing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=510

stupid place to ask this question this is formula country

I understand it is a simplified question, but if it possible can someone estimate a difference in a sail size for the difference in a volume of board (as a minimum for planning) for the same weight sailor. I do belive there are more variables, still roughly for 80kg. sailor on a 120l, 150l, 170l at 15kn. as a minimum.

dioma said...

I understand it is a simplified question, but if it possible can someone estimate a difference in a sail size for the difference in a volume of board (as a minimum for planning) for the same weight sailor. I do belive there are more variables, still roughly for 80kg. sailor on a 120l, 150l, 170l at 15kn. as a minimum.

There is no simple linear relationship between volume of the board and minimum planning wind. It is much more about the tail width and shape and the ability to carry a very large fin.

ginger pom said...

ikw777 said...

Looking at trying to maximise my TOW on Moreton Bay.

So what would plane earlier under my 75kg?

What do you want to do - get better through TOW or plane earlier?

Planing at very slow speeds will not make you any better. Gybing is very difficult if you're only just planing and it's a different technique (you can't commit right to the edge). It's boring but it is good exercise

You should stick with the current board, use a smaller sail and practice off the plane. Learn to duck under the sail, do rig pirouettes, helitacks, front to sail, board 360s

I can't do all that stuff and it's where I'll improve

That cat seriously needs to go on a diet!

i only use my mini-formula board, Fanatic 75 in the winter time.

a warm northerly or north/westerly winter front is when i venture out.

i hate the cold.

a 7.7m code/red rigged very full, lightweight rig only,100% carbon mast + boom essential.

5 to around 13 knots is ideal.

this equipment will leave a large slalom board for dead in this marginal wind and very much more enjoyable!

i actually enjoy this sailing almost as much as slalom sailing,especially when the sun is out.

this sailing is a great way to get you're daily dose of healthy sunshine. i need it as i suffer from a sleeping problem.

if you are undecided about getting in to this lightwind sailing,i say you won't regret it.

I'll admit my bias here; I've sailed just about everything but have done very little FW sailing (it's great, but it's not my thing at the moment).

As Gorgo says, the sailable SUPs aren't really designed for planing. The couple I've tried have been slower to plane, and slower on the plane, than something like an original Windsurfer. With their rocker, width and weight they just don't move like a normal longboard or a normal shortboard. Interestingly, Jeffrey Henderson from Hot Sails Maui, the guy who was pretty much behind the longboard wavesailing revival, also says that a wavesailing longboard isn't anything like as good on flat water as a conventional longboard.

You could also try a Kona One, which won't plane as early or as quickly as a Raceboard or a Formula board, but which will putter along quite well and be simpler to sail than a Raceboard and (probably) a Formula board when the wind picks up.

Interestingly, the top speed of a Raceboard (or a Kona, which lights up on high speed reaches) is about the same as a Formula board, but in medium winds (ie maybe 9 knots or more) and open water there's no comparison - the Formula boards are just gone, going maybe 1 1/2 times as fast or more.

The Raceboard/Formula changeover is not just wind strength, but how constant the wind is and how big your bit of water is. Formula stuff can go incredibly well in quite light winds, as FW guys here have said. But if you get a few lulls or wind shadows or don't have enough space to generate apparent wind, they stop quickly as well.

Overall, for cruising I'd opt for the Raceboard because of the flexibility you get with a Raceboard and 7.5, but FW and Raceboards are so different (and each so great in their own way) that it's probably a case of having a couple of tries at each type. It's so much a matter of personal taste when you get down to it.

There's also the One Design option, which is super tough, super simple and great in light and fluky winds and for racing, messing around and cruising, but it has to be admitted that while they are surprisingly quick in medium stuff, they're not in the same class as a modern board when planing. Having said that, they're just about all I sail these days and I do love 'em to bits.

PS a 7.5 freeride would be a bit low-powered to get the best out of a Raceboard, or a Formula board.

Mobydisc said...

Gorgo said...


For light wind planing the best would be a 13-16m kite and a large flat twintip.

A question about kiting in light winds with big kites. What happens if the wind drops completely and you are becalmed in the middle of the bay? Such a situation with a windsurfer means at worse you derig your sail and then as best you can, tie it together and then face a long paddle back to shore.

Forgive hijacking the thread. The kite comment was more of a friendly joke than serious because this is a windsurf forum.

To answer the kite question, you have two options if the wind drops:

1. Swoop the kite in a figure-8 pattern. This generates sufficient air speed to keep the kite flying and keep you moving slowly towards the beach. Eventually you will get a gust strong enough to get going and sail in. It works best with a moderate sized kite that turns and flies fast. Really big kites are not so good in very light conditions. Similarly surfboards are not good because they are too slow and too hard to handle. A big flat twintip is best.

2. If the kite has crashed you wind up the lines, climb into the upturned kite and use the bridles to configure it as a sail. You can hang your board over the side and use it a dagger board to improve upwind performance then sail the upturned kite in like a dinghy. I have never had to do this but my mate has a couple of times. He quite likes it and makes similar speed and upwind angle to a small sailing dinghy. I have swum out to assist him and I can barely keep up swimming flat out free-style.

BTW I swum in more from windsurfing (especially in gusty northerlies) than I have kiting. It's much easier to keep an underpowered kite flying than to keep a wobbling sailboard moving.

BBTW I would never sail out to the middle of the bay on either a kite or a sailboard. I can't see the point of it. All the good waves and fun and safety are at the edge. Rule 1 is to never sail out further than you are prepared to swim in. I like to challenge myself by sailing upwind then running back down and hitting waves the whole way. I did that windsurfing and I do it more kiteboarding.