Hi, very new to the windsurfing scene, have only been sailing for a year and still have a long way to go. My question is though, ive been sailing with other blokes with freeride / race orientated sails and I am using a wave sail.

Is the sail position different whilst planing between these two sail types? Freeride / race sales are raked right back where wave sales tend to be more upright planers?

Have a look at the pics to see what I mean.






Only just starting to get planing

More a case of stance. On a slalom / freeride board you load up the fin with lateral foot pressure, and a lot more back foot pressure. The leads to (or enables, depending on how you look at it) the rig being raked back.

On a waveboard, that same pressure against the fin lasts about 0.01 sec before the fin slides downwind and you're stuffed. It is all front foot on a waveboard.

Thus looking at pics you will see the sail raked less on a wavesail - but that is mostly because it is on a wave board. On a slalom board with a wavesail you would see much more rearward rake possible.

Don't worry about the rake - that does not get you planing or make you faster if you are barely planing, rather the sail being raked back is a consequence of being fast and being in the straps with correct stance

I know what D1 is saying but his advice is about comparing freeride/slalom sailors with other freeride/slalom sailors in what stance they adopt. I think the O.P is comparing very different gear or abilities

d1 said...

Yes, QMD*

just wanted to add that wave sails have a higher cutout so you'll shouldn't aim to "close the gap" as you would do with a slalom sail. It still pays to rake it back though, if you are on a freeride or slalom board...

*(Quod Markus Demonstrandum)

Nah I had a Quod for a while and didn't like it, back to single fins now.

P.C_simpson said...

First photo is going slightly off the wind other one is going upwind, sails are allway more upright going up wind, wavesailors are almost always trying to sail upwind to the top of the peak..

Footstrap position is also a major factor.. slalom board right back, waveboard heaps foward..

+1

And you shouldn't be forcing your sail into either position, the sails, when setup up correctly find their own balance point and the trick is to find it

windinyaface said...

Mark _australia said...
Don't worry about the rake - that does not get you planing or make you faster if you are barely planing, rather the sail being raked back is a consequence of being fast and being in the straps with correct stance

Sounds good mate, im not using straps yet, haven't been using harness long so just feeling everything out. Takes time I guess? Im using a 5.3 wave sail on 150L board. I've had a go of a 6.6 freeride sail (old one), really prefer the control and feel of the wave sail, just need a bigger one I think ?

Hey mate,

I'm in about the same learning situation as you, and I think it's a better idea to get in the straps before worrying about the harness too much. Once you're in the straps you can work out a comfortable body stance for the gear you've got. Then you'll have a better idea of harness line length. I'm stuggling a bit with the straps myself. They're easy enough to get in, but because I've been sailing and full planing out of them, they now feel really weird- too far back even. All just part of the learning curve I guess. So get in the straps (only when planning) asap, so you can work on a good body stance. This is about the stage I'm up to.

As for bigger wave sail, I wouldn't worry about that either- unless you're around 100 kg. I have a 5.2 Ezzy wave sail and it's fine for wave sailing in winds from 8- 14 knts (sub planing) right up to what ever wind you can handle- this is on a 116 lt FWS board. Basically, get use to the gear you have, then start down sizing the board. A good (managble) step from 150 lt is about 115-120. It will feel really small and tippy at first, but after a few months it will start feeling nice again. And still be fun in the surf and flt water, and still easy to up-haul.

This sport is an endless lerning curve, with most of it near verticle. Just keep chipping away as it all slowly all start to fall into place.

Mark _australia said...

Phil I disagree. How long can you actually plane in the straps with no harness? Not long

Learn harness first so you start getting used to it, then when the wind is strong enough that you start to plane, inch back towards the straps over a few sessions.

I agree with Mark too. If you look at the history of windsurfing I think the harness preceeded the foot straps by a few years. Windsurfers were using harnesses on boards that had no straps until someone came up with the bright idea to put on footstraps so the sailor wouldn't separate from the board when jumping a wave.

I normally get into the harness first then the straps. Nine times out of ten, front foot first. However that is another debate.



When it comes to the original pictures, the main difference I can see is the wave sailor looks way cooler.

PhilSWR said...

Mark _australia said...

Phil I disagree. How long can you actually plane in the straps with no harness? Not long

Learn harness first so you start getting used to it, then when the wind is strong enough that you start to plane, inch back towards the straps over a few sessions.

No probs Mark and Moby.

I wished I'd started in the straps not the harness. Now I'm very comfortable going flat chat in the harness (or even without it) and no straps, then once I slip the feet in I feel terrible. I would have got used to the straps by now if I'd worked on them first. Just my view and more practice in order

Perhaps your straps are not in the right place? Position is influenced by fin position, your proportions, mast base position and boom height.
Moving the mast base forward or back by even 1 cm can make a huge difference.

^^^^^^^Phil. For that board, put the mast in the middle of the track. I usually moved it forward to gain control when overpowered, or back in the ocean to give her a more lievly feel lifting the nose a bit more -0 but for you stay around the middle.

The straps are in the correct position being inboard and mid "ship". Once you get the hang of the harness and straps in this position, and if you want to go faster we will move the straps outboard (and a hole or two back), but this is sometime away yet, use them as they are.

You were planning really fast last weekend, out of the straps, in the harness and leaning back towards the tail to handle the sail. Ideally when in the straps you should be leaning out over the rail to counterweight the sail (rather than back) and eventually you will learn to shift your weight slightly forward to trim the board - but focus on out instead of back. Leaning back in the straps with poor trim will will sink the tail, kill the plane and then turn you up into the wind. Is that what was happening when you tried the straps?

now, you were planning fast last weekend with over half the board in the water, you aint seen nuthin yet, once you are in the straps and leaning out the board will be 2/3 out of the water and you will be planning on the fastest part of the rocker (tail) and then your eyeballs will be embedded on your forebrain and then the gps bug hits - your next toy it will be (yoda voice)

perhaps more wind today mate. Unfortunately I cant get out of work today - hope you get a run - practise what I have said padawan

Just to reawaken this topic, been reading alot articles on www.guycribb.com and am finding them really good. One key point he saids is:

"Tip the rig further forwards thereby improving early planing and increasing
Downforce, increasing control and upwind ability"

and

'CLOSE THE SLOT - TRUE OR FALSE?'
Closing the slot (raking the sail back to close the gap between the bottom
of your sail and the board) is an expression born in the eighties. And
that's where it should have stayed. Unfortunately it still lingers and
wrecks loads of windsurfers' techniques! Do not ever consciously 'close
the slot', it just kills the power and reduces Downforce. That's not to say
never close the slot, just never consciously do it. If you're over powered
on free ride or race kit, sometimes it happens naturally as you crouch
down lower for control. But on freestyle or wave kit, never let it close!

So I agree with jsnfok, never force it back let the rig find its sweet spot.

full article is here: www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/The%20Truth%20About%20Harness%20Lines.pdf

I set my harness lines roughly using his method yesterday and noticed an improvement!