Sail design & lightweights

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sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
4 Feb 2011 10:45am
In my bored moments I've been musing over sails.I assume most sailed are designed for about 80kg - 90kg people ( average sailors weight..?). I have a 6.6m KA Koncept that I use in 5 - 18kts & I like it.The few times I've had it out in about 18kts ( my upper limit) & got it off the wind it felt unbelievably fast, stable & powerful... Unfortunately then I have to change down..Would a sail like that be designed for 18kts + so a lightweight that has to change down as it enters its designed wind range wouldn't get to feel the real benefits ? [}:)]Or it doesn't matter what your weight is?
Al Planet
Al Planet
TAS
1548 posts
TAS, 1548 posts
4 Feb 2011 11:22am
What is the sail that you rig after the KA?
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
4 Feb 2011 11:43am
Al Planet said...

What is the sail that you rig after the KA?


It depends.Often in a NE the wind goes straight to over 20kts so I rig my 5m Sailworks..If it picks up a little & is consistently 15 - 20kts I'd rig my old North Voodoo 5.7m but its died & I think I'm after a 5.8m KA kult to replace it..
Al Planet
Al Planet
TAS
1548 posts
TAS, 1548 posts
4 Feb 2011 2:03pm
sboardcrazy said...

Al Planet said...

What is the sail that you rig after the KA?


It depends.Often in a NE the wind goes straight to over 20kts so I rig my 5m Sailworks..If it picks up a little & is consistently 15 - 20kts I'd rig my old North Voodoo 5.7m but its died & I think I'm after a 5.8m KA kult to replace it..


It is nice to have sails from the same company, it can make rigging less complicated.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
4 Feb 2011 11:18am
It doesn't matter what your weight is, as long as you have the right sail size for your weight and the conditions.

If you had a 5.8m of the same type of sail you would then find you would have the same stability,assuming you rig it on the right mast...

On the other hand if you went to an older wave sail on the wrong mast, with it poorly rigged, there would be a huge difference!
nosinkanow
nosinkanow
NSW
441 posts
NSW, 441 posts
4 Feb 2011 2:58pm
Dunno, but give you an idea I have a KA 6.4 Kult and I'd use it in the wind range around 18-25knots and I'm around 30kg+ more than you.[8&x29;]

However, being a Koncept, and if the conditions were perfectly flat, it's 20+ knots and you want to set a PB I reckon you can hold it till your eyelids start flapping against your forehead.[;&x29;]

I think you have the skill to do it Sue.
Windxtasy
Windxtasy
WA
4019 posts
WA, 4019 posts
4 Feb 2011 12:46pm
Will the 6.6 get you planing in 5 knots Sue? How is it for waterstarting?

Im about your size, I dont have a 6.6 but Id like one.

I use my 5.7 Koncept in 16 - 22 knots. Its not quite big enough at 16 knots and still quite controllable and not overpowered at 22. I havent had the opportunity to test its top end yet, but I expect not much more than 22 knots for me - 24?

I think if youre lighter and shorter than the 80kg guy that sails are designed for they are not going to perform at their optimum, but you make the most of it and change down sooner. My Koncept is so stable that I am much closer to using the same size sails as the guys on any given day than I used to be with a RAF sail, and sometimes Im using a bigger sail than the guys on wavesails.
CJW
CJW
NSW
1731 posts
CJW CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
4 Feb 2011 6:17pm
Windxtasy said...

Will the 6.6 get you planing in 5 knots Sue? How is it for waterstarting?


6.6hp yamaha maybe
kyteryder
kyteryder
NSW
692 posts
NSW, 692 posts
4 Feb 2011 7:43pm
When I was about 13 my brother and I had custom sails made for us, due to our size. They were wave sails, but designed for smaller people.
GazMan
GazMan
WA
848 posts
WA, 848 posts
5 Feb 2011 1:04am
sboardcrazy said...

Would a sail like that be designed for 18kts + so a lightweight that has to change down as it enters its designed wind range wouldn't get to feel the real benefits ? [}:)]Or it doesn't matter what your weight is?

Have you considered asking a sail designer that question, like the guys at KA (co-designer Martin Love or head designer AMAC) or even Ben Severne? Sure you would get an informative answer from the people in the know!

GazMan
GazMan
WA
848 posts
WA, 848 posts
5 Feb 2011 1:37am
sboardcrazy said...

I assume most sailed are designed for about 80kg - 90kg people ( average sailors weight..?).


Just watched episode 1 intro video on KA website, very informative and worth a look since you own a Koncept! KA designer AMAC stated that they're (KA) not about sails for 'gorillas', whilst team rider Tony Wynhoven (who at over 100kg is close to being a gorilla) says that 75-80kg would be the 'average' rider weight.

#g/c/56A3B89DD3C9C7DF
lao shi
lao shi
WA
1346 posts
WA, 1346 posts
5 Feb 2011 7:17am
In well powered conditions I have found that cammed sails (like the Koncept that I used to have and the Loft Blade that I currently use) that can rig on a skinny mast are much more forgiving at the top end. I am 78kg and am using a 7m from 15-25+.

The Loft Blade comes with both sets of cams and I have it rigged on a powerex 85% rdm. For the Koncept you will need to buy additional cams. In both cases the sail breathes when a gust hits rather than lifting you allowing you to carry a bigger sail to get you through the lulls.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
5 Feb 2011 6:28pm
Windxtasy said...

Will the 6.6 get you planing in 5 knots Sue? How is it for waterstarting?Im about your size, I dont have a 6.6 but Id like one.

I use my 5.7 Koncept in 16 - 22 knots. Its not quite big enough at 16 knots and still quite controllable and not overpowered at 22. I havent had the opportunity to test its top end yet, but I expect not much more than 22 knots for me - 24?

I think if youre lighter and shorter than the 80kg guy that sails are designed for they are not going to perform at their optimum, but you make the most of it and change down sooner. My Koncept is so stable that I am much closer to using the same size sails as the guys on any given day than I used to be with a RAF sail, and sometimes Im using a bigger sail than the guys on wavesails.

I can go out & wobble around & practise trying to get upwind & gybing in 5-8kts but its not really fun.. depends how despereate I am.. up here you can go months where if I didnt go out & play around in those conditions I wouldn't get out at all!
Re waterstart..sometimes..@@#$#$%$!!!..Sometimes the mast tip is so deep underwater I have to grab it with my feet to bring it up to the surface so i can then walk down the mast..nothing like a few of those to wear you out..
benti
benti
10 posts
10 posts
6 Feb 2011 5:17pm


I've often been thinking of the riderweight vs saildesign-target weight.
I do slalom racing, and its an established fact that most of the fast guys are big guys. some fit some just with a slight 'weight advantage'.what is the key to their dominanse? Their advantage in weight,should turn on them in lighter winds an lulls? Us smaller(72kg) guys\girls can use smaller gear,with less drag and resistance,and there are those whom are ligthweight and fast so it's possible.. But i believe if we rig a race sail,to the specified settings, the weight'ier guys will get more range from each size, no matter how strong my legs are i do not have the force to get the lech pumping and mast flexing and bending as a 20 kg heavier guy?! I have not come to any conclusions on the matter, i feel that on bigger gear, with stiffer masts i tend to be overpowered earlier than the average big guy compared with small gear and softer mast.. For the two last seasons,i've been using point-7 sails,they rig with long extensions and short mast for each size and i think it's a good match for me..

benti
benti
10 posts
10 posts
6 Feb 2011 5:20pm
Well there seems to be alittle bit much of that nowegian winter in the previous post-No wonder i can't figure the subject out when you se my intelligense on the computer
terminal
terminal
1421 posts
1421 posts
6 Feb 2011 6:29pm
I can remember Nik Baker saying that height had a big influence on sail design. He was developing sails in Australia and the other tester was much taller and heavier (cant remember who it was). He said on some sails the other sailor could be really comfortable on a prototype sail, but Nik struggled to handle it.

The centre of effort of the sail (ie. where the average pull point is) will have a big influence on how the sail feels.

Sail makers tend to have a powerful range which may suit the bigger sailor better eg. the Gaastra Poison, and a lighter feeling sail eg. the Gaastra Manic. I would expect lightweights to prefer the lighter feeling sail.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
8 Feb 2011 11:33am
sboardcrazy said...

Windxtasy said...

Will the 6.6 get you planing in 5 knots Sue? How is it for waterstarting?Im about your size, I dont have a 6.6 but Id like one.

I use my 5.7 Koncept in 16 - 22 knots. Its not quite big enough at 16 knots and still quite controllable and not overpowered at 22. I havent had the opportunity to test its top end yet, but I expect not much more than 22 knots for me - 24?

I think if youre lighter and shorter than the 80kg guy that sails are designed for they are not going to perform at their optimum, but you make the most of it and change down sooner. My Koncept is so stable that I am much closer to using the same size sails as the guys on any given day than I used to be with a RAF sail, and sometimes Im using a bigger sail than the guys on wavesails.

I can go out & wobble around & practise trying to get upwind & gybing in 5-8kts but its not really fun.. depends how despereate I am.. up here you can go months where if I didnt go out & play around in those conditions I wouldn't get out at all!
Re waterstart..sometimes..@@#$#$%$!!!..Sometimes the mast tip is so deep underwater I have to grab it with my feet to bring it up to the surface so i can then walk down the mast..nothing like a few of those to wear you out..



Thought I better correct this..Its not the Koncepts fault! I noticed my 4.2m Sailworks did the same thing last session..just the stage I am at with my gybes and the way Im falling in..[}:)] Mind you I got 2 planing carve gybes in a row last sail!..I think I need to be pretty overpowered & have flat water & be on port tack!
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
8 Feb 2011 11:37am
benti said...



I've often been thinking of the riderweight vs saildesign-target weight.
I do slalom racing, and its an established fact that most of the fast guys are big guys. some fit some just with a slight 'weight advantage'.what is the key to their dominanse? Their advantage in weight,should turn on them in lighter winds an lulls? Us smaller(72kg) guys\girls can use smaller gear,with less drag and resistance,and there are those whom are ligthweight and fast so it's possible.. But i believe if we rig a race sail,to the specified settings, the weight'ier guys will get more range from each size, no matter how strong my legs are i do not have the force to get the lech pumping and mast flexing and bending as a 20 kg heavier guy?! I have not come to any conclusions on the matter, i feel that on bigger gear, with stiffer masts i tend to be overpowered earlier than the average big guy compared with small gear and softer mast.. For the two last seasons,i've been using point-7 sails,they rig with long extensions and short mast for each size and i think it's a good match for me..




I'd like to beleive that .It makes my ego less bruised..
wespyyl
wespyyl
WA
118 posts
WA, 118 posts
8 Feb 2011 10:59am
If you are a lot lighter you would probably benefit from using a mast size smaller than intended and an extension. ie instead of using a 430 21, use a 400 19 and 30cm extension.

This would make the sail softer and allow it to twist off more easily in the gusts.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
8 Feb 2011 2:04pm
mmm..Maybe I'll try that for my 5m..run the 400 on it & see how it goes.I think I'm already doing that with my 6.6m ( 430 + 30cms ext)
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