nosinkanow said...

Being a "born-again" sailor I'm confused with mast lengths (just one of many things) on offer nowadays.

...

I understand the 430, 460, 490 etc. are lengths, so if a 430 is extended by 30mm to become a 460 how critical is this to a sail's shape? I can imagine the beginning of the curve will be higher but does it make that much difference in say a freakin' BIG surf sail eg. 6.8? Or are boom holes in the sail a standard height from the tack which will make the bottom hole too high?

If, at just over 100kg and a bees dick short of 180cm, and I want to have one mast like the old days to fit 3 sails and sail with the boom at neck level what mast would I need? 460? What stiffness?

Now here comes the bitching. The most dissapointing part of returning to sailing is the need for so much gear! It's insane! For example more than 2 fins for one board?

You can still use the same sort of gear as you did back then, but you won't be able to cover all the conditions that you might otherwise. There's nothing wrong with owning older equipment and sailing that way, but most people find they want to sail more modern boards in planing strength winds.

You can often get away with the 'wrong' mast for a sail, but it will often affect the way that sail handles, and as others have pointed out, masts are supposed to be reinforced in the sections where the boom attaches, so if you go too far, that section is either too low or too high for the boom.

The sails will be specified with an ideal mast length, and probably an alternative. They are often listed as ICMS 21 (for a 460 I think), but that is not specific enough to tell you what mast is needed.

If you are around 100kgs and are just starting out, then a 460 mast is what you will be after. The type (stiffness and bend cure) will depend more on the brand of sail than anything else.

In general, Neil Pryde sails seem to need a mast that has a softer/more flexible tip, while Gaastra appears to be at the other end of the spectrum.

What sails do you have?

I have a 460 which does for my 5.5, 5.8 & 7.0.
The smaller sails have turban-tops (strap extension) as do some (older) wave sails
- which are good for starters as they have lots of X-ply.

Try the 2nd hand market - ring up shops & ask. Good place to start

Scully said...

nosinkanow said...

keep in mind that I'm leaning towards longboard surfsailing (small surf) and slalom-type blasts out the back. Ta.

lol could you ask for a more expensive combination? they are complete opposites.

Not really, you could look specifically towards products that try to do exactly that ie naish with their wavesails and boxer slalom.

Or alternatively look towards racier sails that rig on rdm's. Most slalom sails under 6.5 rig on/just as well on wave masts anyway (provided the mast is matched).

Try not to think of it so much as in the past- forget about all the stiffness stuff. Look towards powerful sails made to get big guys planing- most brands have them in wavesails and freerace gear. Stick to 75-85% carbon masts as the 100%'s still have a tendancy towards breaking a bit more.

At just a smidge under 100kg's/bee's dick taller if I was going to have a 3 sail quiver it would be somewhere around 7.8, 6.5 and 5.3. It's all dependant upon how much you want to sail though- look at your prevalent conditions ie. on the cheap here I reckon I could get away with just 2 sails cause there is either no wind, 12-16 knots or 20-25 knots. There is always 2 sails/boards I seem to use yet the shed is filled with "one day" gear or double ups of gear used in similar conditions.

As for fins you will find most boards tend to have a sweet spot, you can easily match 1 fin to 1 board to 1 sail. The only time this changes is in light wind where you are looking to extend your early planing/pointing with a fin which will overpower easily. The fin selectors on Select or Choco fins websites seem to be pretty spot on.

No no no, I'm not a raw beginner, I surfsailed for around 10+ years and just coming out of a 2 decade break!

I'm getting my sea legs back by plodding along a lake on a mutha polyethelene board that was bound for the tip! I've only sailed maybe 3 hours of light winds since circa 1991-92 and all within this month! Its all coming back very quickly, I used to enjoy freestyling Wallys in light winds and those skills have really come in useful. I'm surprised I remembered what to do!

I'm pushing myself to get back into the surf though. No I don't expect to carve it up and do loops by the end of summer. I just want to play in small surf in light winds with a Kona One I'll be picking up on the weekend. It'll be my first "modern" board since 1990! I've still got that one it's a custom 8'10" glass wave board, it's a sinker nowadays so I'm not going to attempt to even try it out for a while (see my first original thread, it was a rude awakening for me when I attempted it last summer).

If you don't know Konas Google 'em, they are the modern equivalent of the Malibu surfboard of longboard wavesailing plus does other flatwater longboard stuff as well. They are capable of cracking 30 knots on their stepped tail and have a reputation of being able to be carve jibed! Ideal for blasting out the back in a stiff breeze slalom style I reckon. I think I've made the right choice for where I am and where I want to go with my sailing in the meantime. This board will get me out there again and for many sessions.

FormulaNova asked "What sails do you have?"

Early '90s vintage Gaastra Wave. I wore out, back then, the 5.8 and it is delaminating badly, the 2 smaller sizes 5.0(?) and 4.5(?) are OK-ish. I just want to get back out in the surf again so will use the large one on the Kona with the old boom and mast. I'm sure I'm going to eat it big time and they will be sacrificial in my quest to wavesail again.

I'll be slowly rebuilding my collection with more modern stuff but just need to understand the reasons why there are so many choices of masts...obviously to suit the sails from each manufacturer who all have their own curves etc. but surely there must be a happy medium length where one kind would be OK as a starter.

But your recommendation of 460 is around what I thought I'd be needing. I've got to read more on the ICMS spec though.

Scully commented, "lol could you ask for a more expensive combination? they are complete opposites."

Yeah, they were till the Kona One was invented. The Kona will never beat a dedicated Slalom board and a Slalom board will never be able to play in small surf in 5knots...well not as good as a Kona can, I think it's a good compromise for me. For one it won't sink if it drops down to under 12 knots!

wineman added, "I have a 460 which does for my 5.5, 5.8 & 7.0.
The smaller sails have turban-tops (strap extension) as do some (older) wave sails
- which are good for starters as they have lots of X-ply."

Are these sails all from one make and model line? That's what I'm aspiring to. Yup my smallest sail has a turban/straps. Apart from delamination these sails I've got are holding together well. They copped lots of abuse back then especially the 5.8.

Mark_australia chimed in "Not much has changed it is just that people don't commonly use a 6m on a longboard for 4kn thru to hanging on for grim death in 25kn anymore as it is just not fun.

I thought they did with Konas? ;-) One thing many people have already told me is that modern sails are more forgiving, due to mainly the flat top which spill excess air out therefore you can hold a bigger sail down compared to the old days. Have I misunderstood that? I've got smaller sails so I'm covered for big puffs anyway.

I've noticed in stills and video the shape of modern sails from the front in a big breeze they've got 2 curves with the top bending away the opposite way clearly. My memory remembers them rigid with one constant curve.

Most mast sizes will take 3 - 4 sails which is enough. For your slalom / freeride aspirations, Wineman's example is spot on.

I thought it was too. It's what I wanted to hear.

With a 130-140L and those sails on one mast, and with 2 fins ideally, that would have you planing easy in 15kn and stil sailing in 30 if you're determined.
I imagine that is most of the sailable days covered where you are?

The reason I chose the Kona is to increase my sailing wind range from 5kn up. I don't want to be restricted like I used to be with my old shortboard back then where I only sailed in minimum 15-18kn+. I used to be a high wind snob, in hindsight it did nothing for my water time. I want to change that. Luckily back then I was literally 5 minutes from my surf beach, was self employed and i could see the ocean. If it white capped I was out there in nano seconds! Not nowadays.

For wave gear there is some models that all fit on a 400cm that is - 4.0 thru to about 5.8 ish on one mast. Thats a good option too.

I would have thought 400 is pretty short for my needs, I was thinking about this as I want to get around a 7.0 as my largest sail, say like a Super Freak. That's why I was thinking of a happy medium of 460?

As to stiffness, standard is 400/19, 430/21, 460/25. However bend CURVE is not stated so it is easier to just get same brand masts as sails until you figure out what combo's work"

Aaah, now it's clearer. I thought for each length there were 3 or more choices of stiffness. See I was confused.

mkseven said, "Or alternatively look towards racier sails that rig on rdm's. Most slalom sails under 6.5 rig on/just as well on wave masts anyway (provided the mast is matched).

Ah, the RDM, now this is a new one to me. Reduced diameter, I didn't know if this was a good idea when I first read about them. I thought they'd flex like crazy and snap as soon as they sniffed a 1' beach break. But I'm surprised they are recommended for surf use and they work opposite to the way I thought. The flex allows them to take abuse more easily than SD masts, did I read that right?

Try not to think of it so much as in the past- forget about all the stiffness stuff. Look towards powerful sails made to get big guys planing- most brands have them in wavesails and freerace gear. Stick to 75-85% carbon masts as the 100%'s still have a tendancy towards breaking a bit more.

Thinking of the past is natural coz I don't know any better till I started researching what the story was with new gear and I happily I take your advice, the carbon content is interesting too. Thanks for that. Now that the masts tech spec's has become clearer I can now look at future ideal sails.

I enjoyed planing, that's why I sailed high winds back then, but because I'm making a comeback, and very rusty, I want to take the gentler approach and longboard wavesail which doesn't require planing speeds to have fun. But if it honks I know my Kona will handle it...it's the tail, it's the tail!

At just a smidge under 100kg's/bee's dick taller if I was going to have a 3 sail quiver it would be somewhere around 7.8, 6.5 and 5.3. It's all dependant upon how much you want to sail though- look at your prevalent conditions ie. on the cheap here I reckon I could get away with just 2 sails cause there is either no wind, 12-16 knots or 20-25 knots. There is always 2 sails/boards I seem to use yet the shed is filled with "one day" gear or double ups of gear used in similar conditions.

Your recommended sail sizes sound about right for me, from what I've been reading people are able to hold down larger sails than the past. But I'm not sure about a 7.8, the boom would be sooo long for surf use. But I'd have to review the specs, the Super Freaks and Ezzy have around a 7.0 wave sail, that's the kinda thing I'm after for lighter days. I'll see how I go with my clapped out 5.8 in the meantime, it should manage to push me out on the Kona through small surf. If it's light that's all I want. Just turnaround and ride the wave back or even plod out to a back break and ride it in. I don't need a lot of speed at the moment.

As for fins you will find most boards tend to have a sweet spot, you can easily match 1 fin to 1 board to 1 sail. The only time this changes is in light wind where you are looking to extend your early planing/pointing with a fin which will overpower easily. The fin selectors on Select or Choco fins websites seem to be pretty spot on.

Thanks for that I'll look 'em up. I have sorta managed to get my head around the theory of fin sizes and rakes. geez they've become so long! Different concept of how we thought back then. I stopped sailing post canard and slotted fins! Now wasn't that a waste of time. Fun though being a pioneer. ;-)

jh2703 said, "Check out the Neil Pryde Zen range, 1 boom, 1 mast, 1 extension and 5 sails from 4.9 to 7.2. Covered just about all conditions when I started out, Kept the cost down and kept things simple."

Just what I wanted to read. This is the kind of sail range I was after. I did have a look at NP's website and did look at the Zen but was confused with whether it would suit surf use.

I'm tending to favour Maui Hot Sail's Super Freaks, Jeff uses these for nearly all his longboarding wavesailing. I like the idea of the return of the dacron sails, they make sense and are tough to boot. In actual fact, if you look at the sails from around the early '90s, my sails, and NP's from aroudn the same period have a remarkably similar shape except the SF have a flat head.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm a little wiser now. Apologies for the lengthy reply! But it's all good!

nosinkanow said...

Being a "born-again" sailor I'm confused with mast lengths (just one of many things) on offer nowadays.

Is there such a thing as an 'average' mast length and stiffness just like the good old days when one-piece masts and "Stiff" was common for most wave sails disregardless of make? And all you did was adjust the height of the mast extention to suit your height or style and type of sail?

I understand the 430, 460, 490 etc. are lengths, so if a 430 is extended by 30mm to become a 460 how critical is this to a sail's shape? I can imagine the beginning of the curve will be higher but does it make that much difference in say a freakin' BIG surf sail eg. 6.8? Or are boom holes in the sail a standard height from the tack which will make the bottom hole too high?

If, at just over 100kg and a bees dick short of 180cm, and I want to have one mast like the old days to fit 3 sails and sail with the boom at neck level what mast would I need? 460? What stiffness?

Now here comes the bitching. The most dissapointing part of returning to sailing is the need for so much gear! It's insane! For example more than 2 fins for one board? Sheesh, what kind of madness is that? I met someone the other day with about 6 masts in the back of their car. Fark me dead! No wonder this sport lost popularity, no-one could afford to sail!

Now that's off my chest, can anyone give me some directions please, keep in mind that I'm leaning towards longboard surfsailing (small surf) and slalom-type blasts out the back. Ta.

Re need for so much gear..My feelings exactly!At the moment I have one mast & one boom but the sails aren't working so Ill need to get a longer mast + boom eventually when i win lotto..[}:)]
I posted recently re my cammed 6.2m being a pain to rig. Although on paper it should work- 475cms luff length= 430 mast = 45cm ext it doesnt in practise. The sail has a bottom cam that sets below the top of the mast extension so actually on the extension.It has to come down the mast & out over the bulge of the top of the extension to be in the right spot.The luff is really narrow & tight & access is crap to this cam.With a boom that is too short to outhaul sufficiently I cant stretch the sail out to help get the cam out /over & on...So anyway with the right 460cm mast the cam would be sitting on the mast as designed & with a longer boom I could outhaul it fully to easily fit the cams & bobs your uncle! At the moment its @#$#@!!!!!
One thing I have noticed coming back into the sport with 90's gear & upgrading to more modern is that I can rig bigger sails with my new board. Its taken a while to get the confidence as I remember many times being overpowered with 90's gear.The COE moving all over the place ,then youd fall in & the wind would slam the sail back down on you & you couldnt waterstart. Yesterday I was amazed at how forigiving the new gear is.. ok the gusts werent diabolical but theyd hit & you had plenty of time to get in the straps or adjust your stance & then comfortably blast away..
Why do the wider boards seem to handle bigger sails/ wider wind range than a narrower older board?

if u dont stick to the same brand or maker of sail u could probably fit 4 sails easy on one mast ..for the bigest sail find a sail with a short luff ... ( naish boxer)
and for the smallest sail find a sil with a realy long luff lengh and an ajustable head ..

nick0 said...

if u dont stick to the same brand or maker of sail u could probably fit 4 sails easy on one mast ..for the bigest sail find a sail with a short luff ... ( naish boxer)
and for the smallest sail find a sil with a realy long luff lengh and an ajustable head ..

Nick's right on the money here, partic re luff.

My 5.5 is NP, 5.8 is Gunn, 7.0 is Maui & all rig pretty well (for me, anyway)
1 x Loft boom fits all.
1 x board.

Quick & Easy decision when packing - put the lot in & flock off quick

Gestalt said...

the KA Kult is a sail that fits exactly into the category you are looking for. that's why i like them.(snip)
my sails are 6.4m, 5.8m, 5.3m that covers me from 5 knots on a longboard up to 35-40 knots on a short board. you could ditch the 5.8m in that quiver if you were strapped for cash. all of those sails can be rigged on a 430 mast and one boom.

they are a crossover wave blaster sail, capable of doing 40 knots in the right hands and excelent in the surf for heavy guys, they also have a slightly longer boom than a pure wave sail which helps upwind and adds some extra power
full xply so indistructible..

Sounds like the sail range I'd like, I'll check out heir specs as well. Thanks.

fins are worth their weight in gold! i typically have 1 fin per sail for each of my boards.
for boards i still think the Kona 10.5 is what you would like the most. the kona 0ne is fun to sail and gives that longboard feeling but the 10.5 is more of a blaster with better wave capabilities.

A "Fin Explanation" would have been a question I was going to ask at a later date but now that you've raised the subject. Why do you need 1 per sail? Would you use the longer one for lighter days with a big sail?

Does the depth give it more lift at the expense of manouverability?

Yeah I was quite impressed with the 10.5 specs and blurb, it's the right volume for me and as you say "more of a blaster with better wave capabilities" it will be something to aspire to one day. In the meantime the Kona One ticks all the right boxes, and when I'm fed up with its volume and limitations I'll seriously think about looking at something smaller then.

Wineman said...
My 5.5 is NP, 5.8 is Gunn, 7.0 is Maui & all rig pretty well (for me, anyway)
1 x Loft boom fits all.
1 x board.

Ah, my kind of set-up.

How tall are you? Your 460 mast obviously is OK with these sails, plenty of boom adjustment for your height? I was looking at Loft booms (one of many), they look trick, is it a wave boom? Reason I ask my boom is old wave ones and the bend seems wider than the wave Loft and Hydronamics(?) versions. Have the wave ones become slimmer over the years due to being set flatter (more outhaul)?

If you were wavesailing before and many of us who quit for a while found it is like riding a bike - why not get a cheap freestyle or wave board about 90L and 3 or 4 sails, and for you longboard fix get an old wally?

I don't think too many people are using a Kona with a 6m in 4 knots thru to 25kn.

Mark _australia said...

If you were wavesailing before and many of us who quit for a while found it is like riding a bike - why not get a cheap freestyle or wave board about 90L and 3 or 4 sails, and for you longboard fix get an old wally?

Geez let me pick up this Kona and get back out there will ya! You're confusing me!

I really appreciate your sentiment. I know it would be hard to believe but I want to restart my windsurfing career in longboard wavesailing, small wave stuff and light winds, it suits me now. Call me a hippie or old fart but 20 years is a freakin' long time to be out of any sport! If I get a 90L board now I'm sure it'll join my f'glass 8'10" up in the garage's roof rafters in no time! I'd be that frustrated with it. It's all about getting as much sailing time as possible in the widest wind range possible with my available gear.

The Kona One is not perfect but it is versatile and that's what I want at the moment to utilize any wind when I manage to score the rare free time, this is a HUGE criteria for me. Especially with our inconsistent winds around here. Your first suggestion of 130L to 140L is the next logical step, I doubt I'd ever get back on a sinker though.

BTW, I got this beat up Kona at a very nice price, too good to refuse, it was either this or a late '80's longboard and they don't have a wave rocker! Although the idea has merit I got over the Wally-in-the-surf idea, 14.5kg is surviveable if one drops on my head, but 20kg-25kg...hmmm it won't be pretty.

Wally's are fun though...on flatwater...and light winds and flicking it around in old school freestyle.

I don't think too many people are using a Kona with a 6m in 4 knots thru to 25kn.

I agree. The reason for this thread is 'masts', once I know which one I need I'll slowly be able to build up my quiver of sails. First size to look out for is a light wind 7.0 which should give me a heap of wind range, I've got my old daggy small ones for bigger wind. That suits me at moment. But I'm only tyre kicking....however I've been eyeing one on this website's classified though. Tempting. Not yet though, I just sent my eldest son to Uni this week armed with a new laptop (I could have bought a used 120L board and rig with that money!) it all costs a motza! ...and then I have 3 other kids in high school who needs....I'll stop now.

All future sails has to be able to be used on my next board, whatever that would be but it'll be shorter than a Kona One! It might even be a Kona 10'5" or 11'5" or even a speed board...who knows (shrugs shoulders).