shear tip said...
I've often thought about moving my back straps more outboard on my CA SL58, and considered using this method:

http://mtbest.net/isonic50.html

Mike,
Yeah I had previously seen Tom's method for shortening the distance between the front and rear straps but I don't think that option is feasible for a 94kg sailor in the open ocean. I'd be concerned* using this method to move straps more outboard as the forces would be so much greater perpendicular to existing inserts as oppossed to parallel with them (in relation to the long axis of the board).

*no scientific proof consulted

Ooh now you've got me thinking Sheartip....I could use this method just to trial whether outboard straps would work on the board. Thanks for the great input. Longterm though if it works I'd want to fit proper inserts.

I always use the board ladys method, and I like the idea that it has something else between the insert and the styrofoam. Lately I have been getting paranoid too, and adding divinycell on the bottom of the insert. My theory is that if a screw goes through the insert, then the divinycell will prevent water entry.

Most if not all the inserts I have removed from boards are just the fibreglass wrapped around the insert and bunged in, type of construction. In some of these boards, they have had leaky footstrap inserts, so take from that what you will.

I hate footstraps twisting, so on all the boards I have modified lately I have used double screw inserts to prevent this. I love them! All I have used is the regular chinook inserts spaced 1/2 inch apart using divinycell. I also only use 8 gauge stainless screws, as I figure if/when they strip the insert, I can always go to the next size up.

I hate trying to jam my foot into a twisted strap when over-powered.

If you are good with DIY, I think adding inserts is a good idea. I changed a Dunkerbeck designed Thommen board that I disliked into a great board, just by adding inserts where I wanted them. (Who would figure that a 6'4" guy has longer legs than a 5'8" guy )

Voids in between the insert and the foam does not matter.. Just open up a cobra board! I've had inserts (Fin,track and strap) just floating without any foam touching.. Perfectly fine.

I make a jig up and make the hole a few mm bigger than the insert and then just put some glass and thickened resin in the hole and push the insert in. Doubt there would be any voids unless the resin melts the foam. Which it does on a hot day.

I'm even skeptical about the glass. The screw will hold the insert to the deck.

Footstrap inserts, I figure, are only pulled on. So what stops them pulling out is the decks outer skin. If the laminate over the insert is strong enough, it's not going anywhere..

Putting PVC foam around the insert just means you're cutting a bigger hole in the board.

Snags, take a look at Mount Best web page where he made small extensions for his current board to give him room to move.
http://mtbest.net/isonic50.html

barn said...


I think the board lady is a bit off beat sometimes. I stopped listening to her after she tried to pull a vacuum on a board to evaporate the water

If the glue can stick the foam to the insert, why couldn't it stick fibreglass to the insert?

The insert is there to keep the screw waterproof. It's like a condom.. If we weren't worried about water, a nut and a washer would do it. How do they stick footsteps to kite trays and land boards?

Well, from the sound of it she ran a successful shop, so I know she has more experience than me.

I think, at least with finboxes, that the grooves cast into the boxes are a way to mechanically bond it to something else. So in theory it should be able to stick to PVC or just fibreglass.

Maybe adding PVC surrounds also gives it more surface area for the top layer of glass to bond to?

Maybe it is a way to spread the load more?

I figure Cobra wouldn't care about adding divinycell there, as their normal boards will last at least a few years with no complaints. From the boards that I have repaired, with the same (no divinycell on the inserts) construction, there have been breaks, cracks there, and water has been leaking in.

I know that for me, there is not really that much extra effort in adding the divinycell cartridge, compared to the rest of the process, so I will add it. I would prefer not to make the same repair twice if I can avoid it. I am not saying it necessarily makes the repairs any better, just that I would rather gamble that it makes them no worse.

Hi Brian,
I have never had any problems using the quick/light insert method. These have only been used on slaloms and speeds though and always with double screws. I have never pulled out a screw either, it is such a shame that most production boards don't use double screws. I always fully sand the inserts to remove mould release and key the surface and pre-butter them before insertion. The holes have some filler added before insertion to minimise plugging and voids. I have a router jig with adjustable feet so that the router slot is always positioned tangiental to the insert location on the deck. Tie-downs are used to hold the jig once positioned.

Another way to enhance the bond between the deck laminate and the insert laminate is to use larger pieces of glass around the insert so they sit high then spread them out on the deck(away from the insert) and tape them down flush with the deck using masking or sellotape. You need to chamfer the sandwich pvc (3mm in my case) so that the laminate flows nicely onto the deck and is not folded sharply. This also allows more filler to bond to the deck around the insert and in most cases you have minimal sanding and cleanup. Finally, make sure that the holes are countersunk larger than the major diameter of the screws being used, if it isnt CS the deck laminate will crack and the screw will delam the deck from the insert.

In your case adding outer inserts can be concealed by the pads allowing more reinforcement to be added and hidden.
Cheers, Tim.

P.C_simpson said...
you run the risk of melting the stro core as the resin tends to heat up more if you have a big chunk of it together..

Chemical fires are fun.

Everybody wants to know what happened.

sausage said...
Guys,
Thanks so much for the invaluable advice and tips. I'm leaning towards Kimba's method as I have no PVC sheet readily available (can you buy small sheets and if so, where from?) and as the inserts will be concealed under the pads I'll be able to beef up glass layer on top.

Also I assume the chinook 2 hole inserts are spaced close enough so you can use 2 screws to fit footstraps.

brian i still owe you for a tube of knead-it i can mail some if you want but the problem with the foam(boardlady.com/inserts.htm) is you have the insert then foam then the deck laminate, meaning the insert is lower than the deck, all you need is for the glass to lift a tad under the insert and you have the pvc and suck suck suck a wet core
seeing its a home job, use probably the best glue you can buy good old araldite,its a paste and weightless meaning it wont sink into the core, just make sure you have sanded and its a tight fit, and when you bash it in its slightly proud of the deck and as kimba said two layers of glass over the insert and onto the deck

looking at the way the board lady has done it is the inserts are bogged in to the pvc rather than glassed either way i dont like the idea of the insert being lower than the deck laminate
after saying that what size pvc would you like 8mm,5mm,or 3ml

keef said...

looking at the way the board lady has done it is the inserts are bogged in to the pvc rather than glassed either way i dont like the idea of the insert being lower than the deck laminate
after saying that what size pvc would you like 8mm,5mm,or 3ml

Keith, the way she suggests doing it, is to have the pvc around/on the side of the insert, not on top of it. Otherwise, its installed the same as just the insert by itself.

The insert is at exactly the same height, i.e. just under the deck laminate.

I use the proper filler for mixing with the epoxy to form the bog/glue. I have tried using talcum powder when I had nothing else left, as I had read it being used before. It seemed to work fine. I think using only epoxy make risk generating more heat than if you used a filler. The mixing cups of this paste don't seem to 'thermal' and go off, unlike epoxy by itself.

How good is araldite in these sort of repairs?

FormulaNova said...

keef said...

looking at the way the board lady has done it is the inserts are bogged in to the pvc rather than glassed either way i dont like the idea of the insert being lower than the deck laminate
after saying that what size pvc would you like 8mm,5mm,or 3ml

How good is araldite in these sort of repairs?

.dale araldite is as good as you can get, west systems have a glue called microfiber , basically airosil"silica" and glass fibers , if you havent seen it, ill be seeing you in a couple of days, ill give you some , lets hope seabreeze has got it rite

P.C_simpson said...
Basically putting a pvc block into the board first make the insert stronger, the insert bonded to the block has pretty much no chance getting pulled out through the deck unlike just an insert, which i have seen alot of times.

boardlady quote. "A close-up shows that the fiberglass skin was detached from the top of the insert" ok heres my argument , it looks like the board lady has used bog too glue the insert into 10mm divinicel, it definitely doesnt look like glass,
so here we have a glassed deck and then 10mm divinicell around the insert and sanded flat to the deck, then glass over the insert and onto the deck
this is where she contradicts her self we can safely ignore the fact that the Epoxy still will not bond to the face of the insert, since it does securely bond to the closed-cell foam immediately adjacent
if she used 2 layers of glass there would be an extra 2 layers on the deck makeing the insert under the deck level, and as she said we can safely ignore the fact that the Epoxy still will not bond to the face of the insert,
ok so what happens if the glass doesnt stick to the face of the insert remembering the plug is under the deck and only a thin layer of bog between the divinicel and the corel, the bog looks like Qcells and they can be "porous" you should only use silica airosil to make a water proof glue
sorry brian but you must be getting confused , you wouldnt think there would be so many conflicting ways to stick a footstrap plug in

FormulaNova said...

keef said...

[b]

Keef, your quoting is confusing.. What are you trying to say?

I am not sure that a bog of qcells is porous. Maybe it depends on how stiff the paste is that you are using? Maybe too little epoxy in the mix? If it was a porous mixture, how would it stick together?

I think you are missing the idea that the epoxy around the insert is used to mechanically bond the pvc around the insert.

We need to construct a few test cases to see which is stronger... or go sailing instead.

dale Qcells are for filling voids not as a glue , for one if you mix to much its porous, its heavy and will sag, silica (airosil) is for glue, its weightless and waterproof do a test mix some resin and Qcells and sand do one with airosil then stick water on both, ill be seeing you if you come down for these n/easters
dale your missing the point what im saying is the plug is under the deck and the glass can lift from the surface of insert and soak into the divinicell

Keef, i was not saying what was in the bog mixture or the procedure which to put the insert in.

I explain for you, not as a stab at your comment just to give a better picture.

Glue the pvc block into the board, a good mix for the bog is a "glue powder" maybe a little bit of q-cell just to make it thicker.

Once the "bog" has cured, rout out the hole for the insert, chinook ones are the best.

Sand the hell out of the insert with 40 or 60 grit sand paper so you have no shinny bits left.

Make some more bog like before and also some straight resin. put bog in the hole and on the insert, also in the cavity in the underside of the insert. stick it in the hole so there is no gaps, now glass over it with 3 layers of glass and the straight resin mix, 1 layer of glass goes to waste in sanding..

If you glue the insert in and glass at the same time it all bonds together making it stronger.. if the insert was sanded enough on the top it should not deleminate in the future.

If epoxy will "never" bond to the plastic, every fin box, deck box, or strap insert in every board ever made should stuff up.. which it don't..

One handy tip is to bevell the screw hole in the insert a bit once it's all finished so the screw don't pull the glass away from the top of the insert.

P.C_simpson said...
Keef, i was not saying what was in the bog mixture or the procedure which to put the insert in.

I explain for you, not as a stab at your comment just to give a better picture.

Glue the pvc block into the board, a good mix for the bog is a "glue powder" maybe a little bit of q-cell just to make it thicker.

Once the "bog" has cured, rout out the hole for the insert, chinook ones are the best.




If epoxy will "never" bond to the plastic, every fin box, deck box, or strap insert in every board ever made should stuff up.. which it don't..

One handy tip is to bevell the screw hole in the insert a bit once it's all finished so the screw don't pull the glass away from the top of the insert.

thanks for taking it easy on me PC but thats what these forums are all about, its all about your opinion and your reasoning's
my opinion is dont use Qcells for glue, reason use silica thats what its for , also my opinion is if you insert the foam ,sand to the deck level rout and glue, the insert is still the same level as the foam block and when you put 3 layers of glass over it the insert is below deck level, PC im not saying your method doesnt work , it just doesnt reason to me
i think what were trying to do here is talk brian's language, and thats stuff you can get from the hardware store and yes brian the "slow cure araldite" the reason why is because its light and it stays where you put it and its totally waterproof ,kimba said you mite need too pool it but he is saying about 1mm in the core and a tight fit on the deck, remembering araldite is weightless it will spred in the cavity and ooz out and it wont sag, when its starting to gel wipe off and glass with 2 layers
you will find the insert at deck level with an extra 2 layers of glass on the overlap
brian have a go, the only thing that can go wrong is to make the hole to large, if you under cut and then file you cant go wrong
"edit" brian you you cant use glass around the insert and spreed it over the existing skin, unless your useing (satin weave ),the glass wont bend besides you donnt need it