You have to load the fin up and lean way forward and nearly look around the mast.
Keep mast foot pressure by using your weight to keep the nose down and try to align all the bits like fin pressure, hanging off your harness and rig raked back to crank it upwind. A seat harness lets you "sit" on your rig and gives you the leverage.
If you can watch the formula guys, they really know how to sail upwind.
You have some top sailors up your way, ask them next time they are out on the lake.
Hope this helps.

Ditto for what the others said.

Often when I'm sailing well upwind, I notice that I'm actually pushing the boom away from me. What I'm really doing here is allowing my upper body to lean more towards the rig to keep it away from me (more upright) and not inclined too much to windward which can kill speed in moderate winds. I gather this may be much easier to do with a seat harness, though can't compare cos i haven't used a waist harness for at least 20 years! Another thing that I find helps me to drive upwind is to try and straighten my feet by pushing the toes down which keeps the windward rail raised slightly.

terminal said...

Everything KA43 said.

A key thing is to get the board planing fast before cranking it upwind. The faster the board is moving, the more lift you can get from the fin.

Upwind, you have more length of the hull in the water, and if its a board with a fairly straight rail with a sharp lower edge in around the footstrap area, I find that I can tilt the board to leeward to dig the rail in slightly to get a bit more drive upwind. If the board doesn't have that kind of rail, I just keep it flat. You do not want to be digging in the windward rail.

Dont try to pinch too much upwind but try to keep the speed, to keep the lift in the fin.

In strong winds, you should have no problem going upwind, in fact it can be difficult not to go upwind, so on days when you are really powered they are ideal for getting used to the stance etc.

A full sail doesn't help - you need it to be fairly flat, so you dont want too much outhaul.

I had the 5m set for the bottom of it's range yesterday as I should have been using my 5.7 ( excepts it died). I had it downhauled so the batten above the boom was level with the front of the mast.I didn't have much outhaul on either..Maybe that didnt help my upwind attempts.Its a Sailworks 2003 Revo..I was told that was how to set it up for more power...
so you dont want too much outhaul
Wouldn't you need more outhaul to flatten it?

OK. So I try & push the rig away & point my toes & throw myself around the front of the mast... cripes .. who need twister.. ( only you oldies will get that one).

sboardcrazy said...

terminal said...

Everything KA43 said.

A key thing is to get the board planing fast before cranking it upwind. The faster the board is moving, the more lift you can get from the fin.

Upwind, you have more length of the hull in the water, and if its a board with a fairly straight rail with a sharp lower edge in around the footstrap area, I find that I can tilt the board to leeward to dig the rail in slightly to get a bit more drive upwind. If the board doesn't have that kind of rail, I just keep it flat. You do not want to be digging in the windward rail.

Dont try to pinch too much upwind but try to keep the speed, to keep the lift in the fin.

In strong winds, you should have no problem going upwind, in fact it can be difficult not to go upwind, so on days when you are really powered they are ideal for getting used to the stance etc.

A full sail doesn't help - you need it to be fairly flat, so you dont want too much outhaul.

I had the 5m set for the bottom of it's range yesterday as I should have been using my 5.7 ( excepts it died). I had it downhauled so the batten above the boom was level with the front of the mast.I didn't have much outhaul on either..Maybe that didnt help my upwind attempts.Its a Sailworks 2003 Revo..I was told that was how to set it up for more power...
so you dont want too much outhaul
Wouldn't you need more outhaul to flatten it?

If I set my sail what I call 'full' ie. in light steady wind I can get slightly more power from a sail with more curve, that sail does not give me the best angle up into the wind. I dont race but racers do pull the outhaul out when they want to beat upwind, and then let the outhaul off when going downwind. Its to do with the angle the wind hits the front of the sail - the surface of the sail at the front of the mast should point directly into the 'apparent' wind, as the wind has to follow round and 'stick' to the front surface of the sail.

Your hips will be a bit more towards parallel with the centreline of the board when sailing upwind and you will be leaning about as far forward as is comfortable.

Because you have a longer length of the board in the water and are digging the leeward rail slightly into the water, the centre of resistance of the board will have moved forward, which is why you have to move the sail forward too, otherwise the board will turn too far upwind and stall.

At the end of the day though, its a 'feel' thing and the best way to get the hang of it is to go out well powered up and just sail up and down wind. If you are too powered, it would be difficult to sail downwind. When you have the feel for it from sailing powered up, you can then improve at doing it in lighter wind, which is more difficult, and might need a bigger fin.

A Peter Hart article about racing, but photos 1 and 4 show the upwind stance.
http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7522

sboardcrazy said...

terminal said...

Everything KA43 said.

A key thing is to get the board planing fast before cranking it upwind. The faster the board is moving, the more lift you can get from the fin.

Upwind, you have more length of the hull in the water, and if its a board with a fairly straight rail with a sharp lower edge in around the footstrap area, I find that I can tilt the board to leeward to dig the rail in slightly to get a bit more drive upwind. If the board doesn't have that kind of rail, I just keep it flat. You do not want to be digging in the windward rail.

Dont try to pinch too much upwind but try to keep the speed, to keep the lift in the fin.

In strong winds, you should have no problem going upwind, in fact it can be difficult not to go upwind, so on days when you are really powered they are ideal for getting used to the stance etc.

A full sail doesn't help - you need it to be fairly flat, so you dont want too much outhaul.

I had the 5m set for the bottom of it's range yesterday as I should have been using my 5.7 ( excepts it died). I had it downhauled so the batten above the boom was level with the front of the mast.I didn't have much outhaul on either..Maybe that didnt help my upwind attempts.Its a Sailworks 2003 Revo..I was told that was how to set it up for more power...
so you dont want too much outhaul
Wouldn't you need more outhaul to flatten it?

You are right, I should have said 'You dont want too little outhaul.'

Yes^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Re rigging sails for going upwind comfortably, true that you need to be powered up but this doesn't mean that you have to rig the sail full, at its most powerful setting, particularly if you're a lightweight. Being 'powered up' is mostly about planing comfortably in a straight line and then having the speed and technique to be able to sail upwind.

I do pretty much the same as what terminal said, only setting the sail full (i.e. touching the boom) at the bottom of the sails wind range. I weigh 75kg but I rig all of my KA Koyotes quite flat compared to what the guys at KA recommend cos they feel and perform better for me. Settings for downhaul and outhaul appear to be a personal thing, changes a lot from each person and important to find out whats best for yourself by experimenting a lot. Personally, with my KA's I use near maximum downhaul all the time and then adjust the outhaul to suit wind strength.

For at least the past year, I had problems getting upwind and staying there on my gear nearly all of the time and was looking at buying a bigger fin to make it easier to point higher. However, I persisted with the same gear (apart from getting rid of my old 6.0 and buying a new 5.9 Koyote) and just changed my technique a little, now in the same conditions I'm finding I can go upwind almost as easy as I go downwind!

I use more outhaul (tighter) for going up wind, but only about 1cm. The apparent wind is strongest when you are going upwind, so a reduction in drag helps, at the lower apparent wind speed of a broad run the sail drag is less important.
I use enough downhaul to make sure that I can handle the gusts without sheeting out.

nick0 said...

how long ya harnes lines... i dont think flatening your sail by outhoul and downhaul is good for smaller sails to get upwind u need the extra power to point.
load the fin as much as posible and lean slightly forward... sailing on short boards is hard to get up wind anny way ...

26"..?

I have tried to explain what I do in the below drawing when I point high, well what I imagine it looks like but might be exaggerated. You can feel the sail and board point higher when you *sheet out*. You can feel the sail slicing up into the wind from its leading edge too more than on a reach (middle pic). I reckon the feel in your hands is so much more defined with modern sails than the days of sails with the draft further back which is still so clear to me. I use this technique successfully on both the Kona (without a centreboard) and the Fanatic X-Cross. Dunno if it works with
boards with a centreboard, don't use it anymore on the Kona.

The sails angle of attack is much clearer in light to medium air. Hips are twisted more sideways when you point up. Your back arm is much straighter than the front arm. In heavy air and full planing I tend to use more back foot pressure and fin only as you are steering the board with your feet, you have speed helping you point.

I'm no expert but this is how I see it, excuse the terminolgy as I'm not a boat sailor, just stuff I picked up over the years.

Feel free to comment or for me to make changes PLEASE!!! It's for the benefit of those who need it, I'd hate to have this illustration sitting in cyberland if incorrect. This may or not work for all, depends on what feels comfortable for you.

"Also having your harness lines forward will mean your not fully sheeting in and achieving the correct angle of attack, this fact cannot be stressed enough. "

If oversheeting is a problem when upwinding, then having lines at the Cribb position (one third back, no back hand pressure) would surely make it more likely.
Maybe one gets good speed in gusts when the centre of pressure moves back, if that is the goal...

I have found in lighter winds changing my fin from the stock 30cm to a 32 has helped enormously for getting upwind.

sboardcrazy said...

Gradually going through the responses and trying to soak them in. Thanks everyone.!
.A Peter Hart article about racing, but photos 1 and 4 show the upwind stance.
http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7522
Interesting..the 3rd photo in the series has him hanging very low to the water which is what I've been doing more lately so maybe it isn't wrong!
Only trouble with the forum is information overload! Ill have to just try one thing at a time.
I'm a bit confused about how far to sheet in..maybe it depends on wind strength because I'm sure I point upwind better with the sail not sheeted in as much in subplaning/marginal conditions.? .it slows down when I sheet it on more..Maybe as I gain speed as i start to plane and the apparent wind heads me I need to sheet on more which is why I'm not going as well as I'd like because I find that hard to do.Maybe my harness lines need to move back ..Ill have to experiment next time I'm out..I spend most of my time going upwind anyway..

The best way to get more feel for when the sail is sheeted correctly is to move the ends of the harness line right in until they are touching, but that requires the sail to be rigged to keep the centre of effort stable, and you put the harness line in the right place.
The only way to tell if its sheeted right is by feel. Its probably easier to develop the feel in light winds, when you are trying to get the board planing.
For going upwind, to start with I would suggest not trying to point the board at as high an angle as possible as you are going to often stall it or oversheet. By pointing a little lower and keeping more speed, its easier to get the feel for sheeting the sail, and you will still be able to go upwind very well.

terminal said...

It may help understand what you are trying to achieve when sheeting the sail correctly from a way of seeing when a sail is sheeted correctly.

When I was sailing a dinghy, I could watch a short length of wool on the other side of the front sail. It was a short distance back from the leading edge. If I sheeted in too much, the turbulent wind on the front side of the sail would make the wool flap around. When I sheeted out just the right amount, laminar flow was established and the wool was horizontal and straight.
You could sheet out slightly too much and still have the laminar flow, so it was a case of checking every so often by pulling the sail in again until turblulence appeared and letting it back out enough to make it laminar again.

No-one seems to use that in windsurfing, as you need to keep your eyes on other things. The bigger diameter of the mast as opposed to the forestay wire on the dinghy means the windsurf sail is slightly less sensitive to the sheeting angle anyway.

I used to sail & used telltales.I once posted a topic about whether you could use them on a sailboard sail..So do you? I imagine you wouldn't be able to see the one on the other side of the sail ...? Sailing you are behind the sail & can see both sides but the sail is between you & the telltale sailboarding..It would certainly make life easier if you could use them sailboarding although the speed you go and all the chop etc you might not have the time to be able to scan the telltales without 'splooosh!'