I've always been pretty skeptical of people who discuss the finer details of board shapes with great confidence as to the impact of these features. E.g. fins, concaves, tails, channels, rocker etc.

Obviously these have an impact on how a board rides (some more easily understood than others), but I'm starting to think that in some cases a lot of feedback that the average surfer gives about minor design changes is crap.

For example, with a car a driver can drive the same track under almost identical conditions for hours at a time. I can see how this would allow a good driver to feel the effect of relatively subtle changes to the car set up.

But conditions generally change significantly from 1 surf to the next. Besides, the the average surfer might only actually surf for a few minutes in a 2 hour session. And this few minutes will be made up of numerous different waves. And in that time the tide, swell and wind are all likely to change.

So I find it very hard to believe that the average surfer can really isolate the effect of subtle differences in board shape/design over all the other variables involved in surfing.

What's everyone reckon?

Well, every new board I get is substantially different from the last (but I usually keep them ~ 4yrs), and I definately can tell the difference, but usually it's more about the rocker and rails (and thruster -> quad).

I generally agree with your thoughts, but in the 'old days' when nearly all boards had a skeg/fin box, I reckon moving it an inch forward or back, or putting a smaller fin in was definately noticeable. Having said that, I was surfing all the time then, and would generally make the change mid-surf...

Perhaps what I am talking about are not the subtle changes you are referring too...

^^ Hey CMC Ive got a shapers set square you know the clear ones, no board I have mesured up has been perfect. In fact the worst one would be my AB, tbh I dont think a board should be perfect. Makes them even more special imo

CMC said...

doggie said...

^^ Hey CMC Ive got a shapers set square you know the clear ones, no board I have mesured up has been perfect. In fact the worst one would be my AB, tbh I dont think a board should be perfect. Makes them even more special imo

So do I Doggie, I can't say I've ever measured the accuracy of my boards though.

Are you sure you arent one of those Loonies I was talking about above??

Lol if I was I would take the square into the shop with me to drive guys like you crazy

I've been surfing this board for 4 years, it is one of the better boards I have owned. One of the forward fins is set a 1/2an inch closer to the rail, when I realized this I went straight to the shaper to demand a replacement, he was shocked that such a fault slipped by him but suggested as I did not notice it for 2 years he was no longer liable.So no I don't think the average surfer cant ell the difference.

totally agree

It's pretty obvious from the naked eye in that photo. Also the tail width looks a fraction wider or differently shaped on the left (with respect to the photo). But you can clearly see the back fin/front fin offset distances are different and the front fin/rail distances are different by a long shot.

CMC said...

Legion said...

It's pretty obvious from the naked eye in that photo. Also the tail width looks a fraction wider or differently shaped on the left (with respect to the photo). But you can clearly see the back fin/front fin offset distances are different and the front fin/rail distances are different by a long shot.

It's probably what made the board 'one of the better he has owned'.

The added distance from the rail probably brings it closer to his foot ala the Bob McTavish theory. www.flickr.com/photos/ricricho/3940181626/

It's why magic boards are impossible to replicate, sometimes random stuff makes them work better than if they were technically perfect.

I had a 6,3 of a local shaper that had a slight twist to the tail (rounded square) and it was a total dog. I check everything now on boards before I buy them unless they come from the east. I havnt had another one with that kind of defect since tho. I could list maybe 15 things wrong with the AB and thats a cracking board so at the end of the day if it looks ok it usually surfs ok as well.

CMC said...

Legion said...

It's pretty obvious from the naked eye in that photo. Also the tail width looks a fraction wider or differently shaped on the left (with respect to the photo). But you can clearly see the back fin/front fin offset distances are different and the front fin/rail distances are different by a long shot.

It's probably what made the board 'one of the better he has owned'.

The added distance from the rail probably brings it closer to his foot ala the Bob McTavish theory. www.flickr.com/photos/ricricho/3940181626/

It's why magic boards are impossible to replicate, sometimes random stuff makes them work better than if they were technically perfect.

Great example is Maurice Cole's story about reverse Vee in the boards he made for Curren.

I agree. I have stuffed boards up by thinking I knew what I was talking about and demanding design features. I was given exactly what I asked for and I have two boards that feel funny as a result. One is a semi-gun for eight foot surf and it has never let me down and I got my biggest barrel ever on it, but it just feels weird and I lack confidence in it as a result. Confidence is pretty important in eight foot plus surf. These days I just take a board or two in (the last time it was three) say what I like about each and what I don't like. I took in three last time because I was asking to move up the scale through widtth and thickness rather than length and I really didn't like the 6'9" I had. I was getting a 6'6" and I definitely didn't want the shaper repeating the other one on me. The dog was one of his boards. He did a cracking job and I love it. I also think people should be willing to play with their fins more. I have my favourite shape, but in my channel board it makes it too loose like a crazy horse, yet I let a mate borrow that one up north and the fins I liked were too tight for him. I put my standard fins in and he suddenly loved the board - the fins were AB2s swapped for K2s.

So now instead of asking for what I want I ask a shaper for what I need and trust that they know a lot more from there thousands of boards and hundreds of customers than I know from the thirty or so boards I have had in my lifetime.

crustt said...

swalkington said...

crustt said...



I've been surfing this board for 4 years, it is one of the better boards I have owned. One of the forward fins is set a 1/2an inch closer to the rail, when I realized this I went straight to the shaper to demand a replacement, he was shocked that such a fault slipped by him but suggested as I did not notice it for 2 years he was no longer liable.So no I don't think the average surfer cant ell the difference.

That's pretty bad crust......can you say what brand it was or would you prefer not to?
If he can get a fin that much out I wonder what else is going on with the rest of the shape? Although I guess the fins would be set by someone else and the shaper would just shape the board.....maybe that's why he didn't notice. I would think a fin that out would cause some performance peculiarities though.

There is nothing wrong with the shape of the board, might look out of shape because of a lazy repair I did on the tail. I think the saddest thing was that it took me close to 2 years to notice it myself, I picked them up from the glasser, had I have noticed it would have been replaced. The shapers name is Kirk Bierke I've been getting my boards from him for 25 years now , he knows his stuff. I don't even bother to talk about the finer details when I order a board, just length , tail and how many fins. If I go to a shaper I just tell them what I want a board to do in what type of wave and leave it up to them, to many guys go to a shaper and insist on it being done in a certain way and then blame the shaper when it is a dud.
As far as the fin causing performance peculiarities maybe it just compensated for my surfing peculiarities.