Iterested to know what people think the relationship between blade size and board speed is with everything else kept constant?

Lets also say that its on flat water and no wind.

Is a smaller blade faster or slower and why?

Does a smaller blade and less fatigue give you an advantage over a longer distance?

Phill

Well recently we have tried several size blades with 400m sprints on a measured course and maybe at best 2 - 6 second differences at most.

Given over several kms that would add up but I think you get my point.

Maybe engine size and power radically change that?


Phill.

Lacey's right but it's relative to your strength. Like any other paddle sport, there's no point in using a paddle you're not strong enough to pull through the water.

laceys lane said...

a man using say a 'pipes' for dw ing means he's doing it wrong imo.

also, none of the girls around here training are using small paddles
cheers

Cam is without a doubt the fastest guy here in Vic (imo) and he uses a Pipes for everything.. surf, flat water and down-winders.. even with his 17'er.

Most of us use a Methane's (and that's still a very small blade) because we don't have the power or cadance that Cam has.

It's great to see that Naish/Starboard/Werner and even GSI are all doing much smaller blades now.

Are they making these smaller blade paddles for people doing it wrong?..

DJ

hilly said...

Is Cam a small guy?

I know Dave Kalama uses a 10 inch he seems to go alright and iron phil likes larger blades as I said before different strokes for different folks.

Cam is average sized.. and I've meet Dave and he's also pretty average sized.. I know he used to, but I wonder if Dave still uses a 10" blade?

DJ

On the subject of paddles does the angle of the blade effect things ? The two paddles i have have slightly different angles, does the one with more angle give you a longer stroke or does it work as a disadvantage or is it the other way around ???

There must be alot of science to it and the diffrences are hard to tell. I find some days I feel better with a certain paddle and other days it will feel no good, this must come down to how im feeling on the day and conditions but im having trouble working it out.

All the Kialoa's look the same to me,

how do you know for sure which one I'm using DJ.

DavidJohn said...

hilly said...

Is Cam a small guy?

I know Dave Kalama uses a 10 inch he seems to go alright and iron phil likes larger blades as I said before different strokes for different folks.

Cam is average sized.. and I've meet Dave and he's also pretty average sized.. I know he used to, but I wonder if Dave still uses a 10" blade?

DJ

I spoke with Dave on Molokai & Namotu this year he uses the 10'' inch for Downwind & a 9'' inch for surfing I use a 10'' for both.

It takes me 244 sptrokes to do a one kilometre paddle in the flat with no wind in 6 minutes 24 seconds (consistant over 10 kilometres ) & yes there would be guys out there that would smash those strokes & that time.

DW

Great thread OG. The kind that will keep me checking in today to see what people think.

I am a bit of a research nerd on these kinds of topics.

Ultimately there is no correct answer. The only way to work out what is the best answer for you is to test a few sizes and time trial or GPS to see what works best and gets you from point A to point B the fastest. Paddles are like shoes, different sizes and lengths will suit different people. That quote is stolen there is a great read on this topic at rambos-locker.blogspot.com/search/label/paddles

The important thing is to consider is that you do not pull the paddle through the water at all. You plant the paddle in the water and pull yourself past it. If your paddle hits the water 2 inches from a leaf when you exit the leaf should be be basically undisturbed and still 2 inches from the blade when it exits. That is clean entry and exit and proper planting of the blade.

Given that your paddle speed as you move past it will mirror your board speed it is assumed that the blade relative to your size and strength will remain fixed in the same spot and using good technique you maximise the holding of the water. It is obvious that a too small blade for your board, weight and strength will ultimately allow water to slip past the blade and become inneficient. Whether paddles can be too big is an argument that goes on as in theory as long it is big enough to stay fixed in place the bigger blade serves nothing additional other than to add weight and make the recovery more difficult. In other words a too small paddle is worse for speed than a too big one. IMO a lot of people are using small paddles to compensate for the fact that they are yet to learn how to engage the core and get sore shoulders or arms as they are yet to receive proper tuition in paddle technique.

IMHO a pipes or methane would be too small for the average sized male paddler on a race or DW board with reasonable strength, technique and endurance based on slippage. The Kioloa website says that the pipes is a girls paddle http://www.kialoa.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=138 it also says that the Methane is for the surf.

This is only my opinion of course but given as Lacey said (and is true) that almost every accomplished competitive paddler is using paddles 8.5 inches and above this opinion is pretty well supported by race results globally.

boarder paul said...

Interesting, I myself am looking at the shaka for such reasons, I use the methane now.

Its almost like i have got the paddle power down, But with that i want more power and getting that from a methane i am taking on bad habits trying to hard with the methane, And then in turn causing arm and shoulder pain.

= Skaka big blade less effort but more speed but i am 90kg

Not so sure that a bigger blade means less effort although I would think that a blade efficiently held in place would mean greater results for the same effort as slipping and fluttering around on a smaller paddle.

CMC said...

Great thread OG. The kind that will keep me checking in today to see what people think.

I am a bit of a research nerd on these kinds of topics.

Ultimately there is no correct answer. The only way to work out what is the best answer for you is to test a few sizes and time trial or GPS to see what works best and gets you from point A to point B the fastest. Paddles are like shoes, different sizes and lengths will suit different people. That quote is stolen there is a great read on this topic at rambos-locker.blogspot.com/search/label/paddles

The important thing is to consider is that you do not pull the paddle through the water at all. You plant the paddle in the water and pull yourself past it. If your paddle hits the water 2 inches from a leaf when you exit the leaf should be be basically undisturbed and still 2 inches from the blade when it exits. That is clean entry and exit and proper planting of the blade.

Given that your paddle speed as you move past it will mirror your board speed it is assumed that the blade relative to your size and strength will remain fixed in the same spot and using good technique you maximise the holding of the water. It is obvious that a too small blade for your board, weight and strength will ultimately allow water to slip past the blade and become inneficient. Whether paddles can be too big is an argument that goes on as in theory as long it is big enough to stay fixed in place the bigger blade serves nothing additional other than to add weight and make the recovery more difficult. In other words a too small paddle is worse for speed than a too big one. IMO a lot of people are using small paddles to compensate for the fact that they are yet to learn how to engage the core and get sore shoulders or arms as they are yet to receive proper tuition in paddle technique.

IMHO a pipes or methane would be too small for the average sized male paddler on a race or DW board with reasonable strength, technique and endurance based on slippage. The Kioloa website says that the pipes is a girls paddle http://www.kialoa.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=138 it also says that the Methane is for the surf.

This is only my opinion of course but given as Lacey said (and is true) that almost every accomplished competitive paddler is using paddles 8.5 inches and above this opinion is pretty well supported by race results globally.

You put in words what I was thinking totally agree

Sometimes we get caught up in too much info and opinions.
Why copy what all the "good guys" are using?.Most "good guys" could paddle any paddle and make it work well. How many times have we picked up a paddle and thought this feels good, or no this feels like s##t?
Are we just like sheep following?

Why not use a paddle that best suits you and what you want to do on your type/size of board.
Most people use what is recommended to them from someone else, who not always knows what the intended use of the paddle was designed for.

We all have different power levels due to age, injuries and abilities so try a few different sizes/lengths and use what best suits you, not somebody else.
My 2 cents worth.

laceys lane said...

camo hosk said...

Hey Lacey is there something missing here,

guess I'll just have to remember your post in my head,

cheers.

hi cam, i sorta gave up, cmc is good at this stuff, what he said is fine
btw, i don't know what you paddle, but have a try of the qb elite racer 8/7 if you can demo or try one
cheers

Yer Lacey keen to try all the different gear at Merimbula next month,
so I'll look out for a qb elite and give one a go,

cheers.

Simondo said...

I stumbled across this little article on Shaft Length.
www.ponohouse.com/ponoblog/
(DJ, is this Pono Bill ?)

In summary;

Starboard: flip the paddle upside down, rest the handle on the ground, and where the paddle blade starts to spread from the paddle shaft it should be about eye level.

Quickblade: add 8 inches to your overall height for surfing, and 9 inches more for racing/paddling.

Kialoa: add 6-8” for surfing and 10-12” for racing.

Laird Hamilton: “Your paddle should be as tall as the reach above your head. If it’s too short you will be reaching forward – if it’s too big you will be reaching too far back. Tip: Raise your arms up as if you were doing a pull up and that should be the height of your paddle.”

David Kalama: recommends the same method as Laird Hamilton.

Hey Simon.. All that refers to paddles length and we're talkin' blade width..

DJ

if someone says they would like to be a good paddler, why wouldn't they take advice of better paddlers. you can waste a lot of time paddling around trying to improve if you aren't got it somewhere near right. the topic asked for advice last time i looked up the top

That's a good point.. but maybe what you don't realize is that a lot of the top paddlers use Methan's and Nitro's.. For example.. I regard Dan Gavere as one of the best imo and his preferred race paddle is the Werner Nitro and that's between the Methane and the Pipes in size.

It's all interesting stuff.. Chuck Patterson is build like a brick sheethouse and he has the strength to pull a Shaka Pu'u and they're only slightly bigger than the Methane.. and the Poo was once thought of as a small surf blade.

I wonder if Woogie is using huge blades?

DJ

Mr average golfer here, PT your mates were correct in bagging your driver for the rest of the round,however swinging a one wood correctly is a thousand times harder than paddling a sup.

Interesting comments in this thread,I think Wazza is on the money.

Most of us drive a car well,however given the key's to a F1 could we drive it like Mark Webber,no.But would we go faster, yes ( it has a faster motor)but we do not have the skill