We shot this video with the Blue Planet team in the Mentawais on the advantages and challenges of riding lower volume boards:

Hi
So what I would like to know what is the difference with a board that sits just on the surface of the water / that is just about under water - and one that is totally under water similar to the one in the photo/video - and is the stability & paddling the same or better??:-), and if it is really choppy / bumpy on the ocean surface then is being under the water better (stability vise), and when paddling under the chop is there any bouncing / movement at all (smooth) or just a bit??:-)

Johndesu said..
Hi
So what I would like to know what is the difference with a board that sits just on the surface of the water / that is just about under water - and one that is totally under water similar to the one in the photo/video - and is the stability & paddling the same or better??:-), and if it is really choppy / bumpy on the ocean surface then is being under the water better (stability vise), and when paddling under the chop is there any bouncing / movement at all (smooth) or just a bit??:-)

One major difference is the paddling speed, and the effort spent. You paddle super slow, and spend a huge amount of energy for it. The board is also stabler because it is isolated from the chop, but it is unstable, you have to spend energy constantly balancing it, but it is a controllable balance, not subject to random acts of the chop.

An interesting topic, but that would need to be separated into variables: To reduce the board size, you can make it:
- shorter
- narrower
- thinner
And it brings different advantages. For instance, for hollow waves, narrow is the most important factor. So you may keep some volume in a narrow board to still have some paddling speed, etc, etc... compromises.

Also, once on the wave, it must be worth it, as in do you have the surfing skills to take advantage of it? At my 100kg, I am able to SUP surf a 84 liters board, but frankly I surf no better than with a 105 liter wide board or a 115 liters narrow board, the extra performance is wasted on me. Plus I am dead after 30 minutes, whereas I can surf for hours on the other boards.

Why not just go prone ?
is there any advantage in using a paddle with these low volume boards ?

JosephBetts said..

riverider said..
Why not just go prone ?
is there any advantage in using a paddle with these low volume boards ?

If you cant paddle laying down there is. My neck is ****ed and paddling prone causes nearly instant migranes. And then there is the disc bulge in the lower spine, that only stops hurting after SUP, paddling prone hurts this also....and getting up too quickly.

I feel ya on that ... I prone session for me and its straight too the chiro ...

There is a young rider at my local break who rides a small JP like this and he is very good rider. He also lives across the road from the beach and has access to waves every day.
When I used to ride bodyboards you could do a similar thing with riding a board that actually stayed under the water underneath you. As long as you had a semi powerful kick the board actually uses the forces in the wave to push through the face while being submerged under the water and then as it falls down the face gains the speed to keep up on the plane. I used to weigh 105kg when I bought the board but then playing Rugby, ballooned out to 125kg. i could still ride the board but it couldn't float me. It is actually easier to take off on a wave using this technique of semi submersion. When you get on the wave your riding a small board for your weight ratio so you can do bigger manouvers, sprays, cutbacks, etc as your weight/ratio has increased. You will also fall off the wave more easily on the shoulder.
To feel the wave motion catch a wave bodysurfing, but stay just behind the cresting lip and you will feel the physical force of the wave forcing water up into the lip.
If you watch dolphins surfing they also catch waves like this.
I think the next progression will be for riders to catch the wave on a SUP while maintaining submersion and not having to paddle up onto the plane. The only reason you need to get up on the plane is to create enough speed to counter the water being pushed over the back of the wave.
Geez this would make a good physics PHD.
pump.

pumpjockey02 said..
To feel the wave motion catch a wave bodysurfing, but stay just behind the cresting lip and you will feel the physical force of the wave forcing water up into the lip.
If you watch dolphins surfing they also catch waves like this.

This is very true, and is felt a lot in foil SUP/surfing: With proper push/pull on the foil (straps help there), you can actually take off from behind the crest of the wave, the 2' underwater foil kind of towing you into the takeoff, quite a magical feel.

Johndesu said..

colas said..

Johndesu said..
Hi
So what I would like to know what is the difference with a board that sits just on the surface of the water / that is just about under water - and one that is totally under water similar to the one in the photo/video - and is the stability & paddling the same or better??:-), and if it is really choppy / bumpy on the ocean surface then is being under the water better (stability vise), and when paddling under the chop is there any bouncing / movement at all (smooth) or just a bit??:-)

One major difference is the paddling speed, and the effort spent. You paddle super slow, and spend a huge amount of energy for it. The board is also stabler because it is isolated from the chop, but it is unstable, you have to spend energy constantly balancing it, but it is a controllable balance, not subject to random acts of the chop.

An interesting topic, but that would need to be separated into variables: To reduce the board size, you can make it:
- shorter
- narrower
- thinner
And it brings different advantages. For instance, for hollow waves, narrow is the most important factor. So you may keep some volume in a narrow board to still have some paddling speed, etc, etc... compromises.

Also, once on the wave, it must be worth it, as in do you have the surfing skills to take advantage of it? At my 100kg, I am able to SUP surf a 84 liters board, but frankly I surf no better than with a 105 liter wide board or a 115 liters narrow board, the extra performance is wasted on me. Plus I am dead after 30 minutes, whereas I can surf for hours on the other boards.

Hi Colas
Yes I know what you mean but I think there is a time and a place that a low volume board would be needed on a given day. I want to try a low volume board but was wondering how low to go - just on the surface or just below it or a few inches under water?:-)
thanks for your input as I know that you have a lot of experience, I would also like to here from Ty:-)

The differences between a board just on the surface and a board a couple of inches below the surface, can be the difference of just wearing a wetsuit or having a big meal before you go out. (for me wearing a wet wetsuit will very well push me down past my waist)
As for stability, the board on the surface of the water, will get all the chop and backwash hence making you work to stay on top of the board. I feel as you lower into the water, the lowered centre of gravity gives your body more stability and you feel more centred, but your board less and it just wants to shoot to the top. Chop isn't as much of an issue as you haven't got anything hitting the board, an issue is the currents under the surface. Depending where you generally surf around(currents, headlands, etc.), should help determine what type of board you are looking for.
Balancing on the boards are also completely different. With a board completely submerged, there is a 360 degree sense of weight distribution to counter balance the board from pushing to the side and pulling up from underneath you. For a board sitting just on the surface you generally have the nose out of the water and you have a point that can be relied on to keep forward and back stability - unless it goes under the water.
Paddling a board from under the water is much harder than something that is already at the surface. 2 or 3 small powerful strokes will get you to the surface and if you're constantly paddling around you shouldn't sink too far down, but is does get tiring, and I end up sitting on my board.
For some one taking their first steps towards a low volume/weigh ratio board, the shape of the board also plays a big part, mainly the way the board acts under the water and wide tail changes the stability(for instance I sometimes play around with an 8' mini mal that is 53L. So when I'm still, I'm up to my chest, but because of the larger surface area with a few strokes, I can get the board up to the surface easier than my 68L board).
Be patience, it takes time to to figure it out. There is a lot of practice involved I'm still falling off all the time - all apart of the fun.

colas said..

Johndesu said..

Yes I know what you mean but I think there is a time and a place that a low volume board would be needed on a given day. I want to try a low volume board but was wondering how low to go - just on the surface or just below it or a few inches under water?:-)
thanks for your input as I know that you have a lot of experience, I would also like to here from Ty:-)

To really experience a low volume board, you should have water above the deck when standing still. Keeping in mind that you should have the nose tip of the board above the water for ease of balance, it means a board volume in liters between your weight in kilos and your weight + 10 (especially with a wetsuit. +5 in trunks).
Less than this and it will be not worth it the trouble for a first "sinking" board.
More and the deck will be a bit out of the water, and you will not get the full underwater quietness experience.

I would advise to try a board with a somewhat squar-ish nose: the wider nose is both stabler and make the rails in the front more parallel to the board direction, so if you roll a bit the board on takeoff, it wont induce as much unwanted directional changes as a truly pulled-in nose.
For example, I find the Gong Fatal nose perfect for this: wide enough to be stable, but narrow enough so as not to be cumbersome in turns: (kind of a "Hybrid Tomo" nose)

Thanks for your advice Colas, my lowest volume board at the moment is 83L but with booties, gloves & helmet still feels too much volume (I would need around 70-75L), and I love the look of that Gong so if you ever want to sell it second hand or know of one then let me know (also I have a Sunova Acid that is 7.6 x 28.25 that is very similar to the gong (except the nose is pointy at the tip other wise the shape is pretty close:-)

Johndesu said..
and I love the look of that Gong so if you ever want to sell it second hand or know of one then let me know

Well, shipping to australia will be the trouble there.

I must say that pursuing the "race to the bottom" as Erik Antonson coined it ( twitter.com/erik_antonson ) is harder to do with production boards, due to the big gaps in volume between models.
Because when you are close to neutral buoyancy, every liter plus or minus changes the picture.

It is easier to get the volume you want with a custom model, either with an independent OZ shaper like Deep, DC, ... or production companies that can also make custom models, like Sunova.

For instance, I at first ordered the above Gong Fatal in 120 liters, as the previous model was a different shape, narrower and with pulled in nose and tail, and at 115 liters I could not think I could manage less volume without tiring after 30mn. But the wider nose & tail of the new model made the 120 liters feel way too big as soon as waves were more than chest high, so I got also the 105 liters one, which is quite nice for my 95 to 100kg. But with a different weight I may not have found the ideal board in the existing Gong line if I wanted a "just sinking" one.

We just posted the second video in our SUP Surfing How To videos: Getting through the surf.
Feel free to add any tips we missed.

Good tips! The warning against knee paddling is very important.

I would add two tips that I think most good SUPers do without thinking (as they are not mentioned in your video), but helped me a lot:

- absorb the wave energy: the wave is going to push you brutally upwards. If your legs are stiff, this will be transmitted to your upper body, and you will be pushed upwards, and most of the time a bit to the side, resulting in a fall as you disconnect from the board. So, before the wave hits, I just "jump" a bit, pre-launch my body upwards, so that the wave will make the board follow me and we will stay connected. You want to jump just enough so that you end up on the top of the wave not pushed randomly by it but by you own controlled motion. And keep your knees flexible to bend to absorb the energy of the board coming up rather than resist it. This is what I was doing while sailboarding to go over the waves.

- use the hip thrust: we all know we must gather momentum paddling to the wave. But when we hit the wave, the momentum is in your weight center, your body, so you must prepare to transmit it to the board, which will be the most pushed back by the foam. So I focus on thrusting my legs and hips forwards to counter the backwards push off the wave using the upper body as a mass to to leverage against.

And cantSUPenough comment is very important too: I think we instinctively tend to raise our arms when off balance, this gets the paddle out of the water and deprives us of a well-needed 3rd "leg"


But what to keep in mind is being close to your board in whitewater is always a risk of injury. So if you do not feel confident you are going to pull off going through properly a broken wave, just bail (without anybody in range). Better bail than an half-hearted attempt that will go bad.