Hi everyone, I'm after some information on converting a standard sloop rig to a junk rig, on a boat of 25(ish) feet.
I'm looking for general information, is it a difficult task? Is it expensive?
For example if I had a 25 foot sloop rig where the rigging and sails were worn and ready for replacing, that would cost thousands. But how would it compare to converting to a unstayed junk rig? The sails are lots cheaper, right?
I've heard of a tophat up in Syd that has a junk rig, so I'm sure there is someone out there that can shed a little light on this for me.
I'm asking because I have a dodgy back that can go into "spasm" with little notice and when it goes, it really goes,bending is near impossible and I need a cane to walk/hobble around. The thought of being caught miles from shore when it goes and I need to reef or change sails......diaster begging to happen.
So a junk rig I can reef or lower completely from the cabin seems a sensible idea.
Yes I've been reading about Mingming and Blondie Hassler.
Thanks for any help.
Mike.
The Top Hat you refer to is now in Mooloolabah.
It was designed from build to take the free standing mast which is fixed to the keel with some substantial engineering.
A previous owner is on this site and will be able to post more info when he see's your post.
Select to expand quotenswsailor said..
The Top Hat you refer to is now in Mooloolabah.
It was designed from build to take the free standing mast which is fixed to the keel with some substantial engineering.
A previous owner is on this site and will be able to post more info when he see's your post.
Great, thanks.
A converted TP would be my first choice. I'd be looking at an electric motor too, if it needed replacing.
Teleport will show you what can be done.
This video is number one.
Good luck in stopping watching!!!
gary
Mike, just a few questions....cause you put it out there...
Are you sailing solo or assisted?
Is this a new hobby or an old one and the back issue is new?
I've had two back issues....and recovered from both...so I know what you are going through....
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
Teleport will show you what can be done.
This video is number one.
Good luck in stopping watching!!!
gary
Cheers I'll watch it soon
Select to expand quotesimmrr said..
Mike, just a few questions....cause you put it out there...
Are you sailing solo or assisted?
Is this a new hobby or an old one and the back issue is new?
I've had two back issues....and recovered from both...so I know what you are going through....
I"ll be solo for most of the time, my partner has little interest in sailing.
It's a new hobby and I'm a novice sailor.
The back issue is just over 10 years old and is a degenerative thing so won't be getting better.
Just from my experience.... when a back goes out.... like you have searing pain and can not move at all until some good meds bring the pain down...I would not want to be sailing. You may find that it doesn't happen at all out to sea. It may happen very close to shore which can be just as bad.
Mike I am presuming a bit here so bear with me... however if you have a real itch to go sailing and haven't bought a boat yet, then I would highly recommend you plan on going out with someone if the back scenario is as described above. How you come about this is entirely up to you or perhaps someone can jump in with advice.
Perhaps a bit more description of your sailing ideas...like where you will be sailing...offshore...protected bay...that sort of thing.
I would like to say good on you for doing something and hope I don't crush your dreams, as it is possible I think. I think you just have to rework the idea of doing it by yourself. My physio was very pushy when it came to taking your mind off persistent pain. And it works....I couldn't think of a better way to take your mind off of things than sailing.
Should have answered that as well. I have a back problem too, but it was bad doing heavy work when I was farming [now retired].
I have been caught out a couple of times 10 years ago and was lucky enough to be anchored at the time when I put my back out.
Both times I spent three plus days laid up in bed surviving on snack food! I won't elaborate on toilet activities. 
So yes if you have a consistence back problem, cruising sailing is probably not the best sport.
Just beware, to be honest some of the junk rig fans on the web are nothing but liars. It's blunt, but it's the truth.
Many of them may be fine people and sailors, but the amount of dishonest rubbish some other JR fans throw at other rigs is depressing. It's probably worthwhile really examining the claims made about junks for that reason.
The cost of sails needs defining. The guy who the junk rig forum refers to as the expert on the comparative speed of junk rigs says that his boat, even with a carbon mast, is 10% slower than a sloop sister. That means his 33' boat is about as fast as a 23' boat of comparable design, so it's a significant loss of pace in east coast Australia, where the number of river bar entrances and the shortage of other harbours is a significant factor.
Other objective information confirms the slow speed of the junk rig. So if one is going to compare like to like, you have to compare an extremely slow conventional rig to a typical junk rig. So for the same sort of cost and performance, you would have to compare a conventional 25 footer with old, cheap, under-sized sails to a new junk rig.
It's similar with reefing. Some one-eyed JR fans show pics of their boats going past conventional sloops, and then note that the junk is (allegedly) easier to reef. But the pics on the JR forum show the conventional boats with small jibs, so they won't need to reef most of the time.
I do find it odd that some JR fans make a big deal about the fact that it's allegedly easier to lower the junk rig when reefing, because of its weight. What they ignore is that the 90%+ of the time you DON'T reef, you have to haul that extra weight up the mast. Why is it better for something to be easier 5% of the time but harder 95% of the time?
As far as handling goes, in my 36'er I can have a reef in less than a minute after leaving the helm - and I still haven't bothered to optimise teh setup because it's already so easy and quick. Despite the flat-out lies of some JR fans who say you can't reef a conventional rig downwind, you can and I do.
I have back issues and I've wondered what it would be like to have a really bad problem offshore. I still can't see how a conventional rig, suitably modified, would be an inferior rig all-round. With about a day's tweaking I could get my 36'er to a stage where you could reef and drop sails from the companionway. Changing things to do it from inside wouldn't take much longer.
Eons ago, I was hitchhiking through England when I got a lift from Michaet Ritchey, Jester's second owner. He was driving a Citroen 2CV - fascinating car but a deathtrap. His choice of car was probably 100 times more dangerous than just about anyone's choice of rig. The way we humans assess risks is a fascinating area.
Might be stating the obvious but thought better to say in case it could be of use.........
The original post mentioned;
"the rigging and sails were worn and ready for replacing"
So there is no mention of mast replacement. Obviously a free standing rig needs a significantly beefier mast especially in the lower half than a conventionally stayed mast. Also as in the above posts the hull, bulkheads and deck structural design needs to be configured so as to accept the unstayed mast. The Freedom range used unstayed masts - eg the 24 - but these were cat rigs and not junk rigs........also with a small jib included sometimes..............
sailboatdata.com/sailboat/freedom-24-tripp
Good articles here regarding unstayed mast designs and issues.............
www.ericwsponberg.com/free-standing-mast-designs/
www.boatdesign.net/threads/refitting-to-a-free-standing-mast.13248/
www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/sailboats-with-free-standing-masts-150283.html
To convert a Tophat to an unstayed mast arrangement - whether junk rig, or cat rig, or cat rig with small jib whatever that might be called - needing a new carbon fibre mast, additional hull structure and new sail/s, would probably cost around 5-10 times the value of the Tophat before modification.
With roller furling systems for jibs and very efficient mainsail reefing systems these days surely they are the ideal?
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
Teleport will show you what can be done.
This video is number one.
Good luck in stopping watching!!!
gary
Cripes that keel delamination repair is mindblowing..............looks like a top effort trust it lasts as long as expected............
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..
Hi everyone, I'm after some information on converting a standard sloop rig to a junk rig, on a boat of 25(ish) feet.
I'm looking for general information, is it a difficult task? Is it expensive?
For example if I had a 25 foot sloop rig where the rigging and sails were worn and ready for replacing, that would cost thousands. But how would it compare to converting to a unstayed junk rig? The sails are lots cheaper, right?
I've heard of a tophat up in Syd that has a junk rig, so I'm sure there is someone out there that can shed a little light on this for me.
I'm asking because I have a dodgy back that can go into "spasm" with little notice and when it goes, it really goes,bending is near impossible and I need a cane to walk/hobble around. The thought of being caught miles from shore when it goes and I need to reef or change sails......diaster begging to happen.
So a junk rig I can reef or lower completely from the cabin seems a sensible idea.
Yes I've been reading about Mingming and Blondie Hassler.
Thanks for any help.
Mike.
Mike,
You would be better off with a fibreglass folkboat with a furling jib and a slab reefing mainsail with all the reefing done from the cockpit. Far less string than Blondie Hassler's folkboat. But ensure the boat has an inboard diesel. A boat you can reef the main while steering with your butt cheeks and not hurting the back and a headsail that only really needs to be furled when you get back to the mooring.
Junk rigs have the advantage of easy to make sails but those battens are a fair old weight to be hauling up the mast and there is all that string!
I like the idea of experimenting with small versions of Junk rigs like this one.
It's a 505 in case your wondering.
I don't know much about junk rigs but have had a bad back for 25 years. The few times I've been caught out while sailing I've always had crew . Nearly went over to the dark side of a non sailing boat because of my age and back before buying my latest boat a cruising cat . A good roller furler a good lazy jacks with stack pack set up , or in mast or boom furler a good engine a good auto pilot and I reckon you would be OK. You could add 1 powered winch in the cockpit that everything leads to . Then I reckon you should have it covered. In an emergency you could dump everything start the motor and autopilot home. Also powered anchor winch controlled from cockpit. There are many many boats with this or close to this set-up on the market. My last back op was pretty successful, back surgery has come a long way in the last 5 years. Good luck .
A good friend of mine changed his slow 22 foot steel mono to a junk rig and slowed it down even more. The speeds he travelled at were startling - he used to average about 2-3 knots up and down the coast. He needed a crew because a 50 mile trip could take much more than he could travel in daylight. He was experienced but I don't understand it. A good roller furler and some nice silicone spray on good mainsail slides and you should be able to drop the main and furl the genny in any breeze. Start the diesel and head home and drop hook. Use electric windlass to anchor. That said, last summer my back just went pulling up the main off Refuge Bay. I motored to Careel Bay, anchored (love that electric windlass) and then when it didn't get better I got to the Basin (took me an hour to get her on the mooring) where my son came along and sailed her home to Lake Mac with me lying down and grimacing. Bad for me but a very important event for us both, the day he saved my bacon for the first time. Bring em up right and they get very useful.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
Just beware, to be honest some of the junk rig fans on the web are nothing but liars. It's blunt, but it's the truth.
Many of them may be fine people and sailors, but the amount of dishonest rubbish some other JR fans throw at other rigs is depressing. It's probably worthwhile really examining the claims made about junks for that reason.
The cost of sails needs defining. The guy who the junk rig forum refers to as the expert on the comparative speed of junk rigs says that his boat, even with a carbon mast, is 10% slower than a sloop sister. That means his 33' boat is about as fast as a 23' boat of comparable design, so it's a significant loss of pace in east coast Australia, where the number of river bar entrances and the shortage of other harbours is a significant factor.
Other objective information confirms the slow speed of the junk rig. So if one is going to compare like to like, you have to compare an extremely slow conventional rig to a typical junk rig. So for the same sort of cost and performance, you would have to compare a conventional 25 footer with old, cheap, under-sized sails to a new junk rig.
It's similar with reefing. Some one-eyed JR fans show pics of their boats going past conventional sloops, and then note that the junk is (allegedly) easier to reef. But the pics on the JR forum show the conventional boats with small jibs, so they won't need to reef most of the time.
I do find it odd that some JR fans make a big deal about the fact that it's allegedly easier to lower the junk rig when reefing, because of its weight. What they ignore is that the 90%+ of the time you DON'T reef, you have to haul that extra weight up the mast. Why is it better for something to be easier 5% of the time but harder 95% of the time?
As far as handling goes, in my 36'er I can have a reef in less than a minute after leaving the helm - and I still haven't bothered to optimise teh setup because it's already so easy and quick. Despite the flat-out lies of some JR fans who say you can't reef a conventional rig downwind, you can and I do.
I have back issues and I've wondered what it would be like to have a really bad problem offshore. I still can't see how a conventional rig, suitably modified, would be an inferior rig all-round. With about a day's tweaking I could get my 36'er to a stage where you could reef and drop sails from the companionway. Changing things to do it from inside wouldn't take much longer.
Eons ago, I was hitchhiking through England when I got a lift from Michaet Ritchey, Jester's second owner. He was driving a Citroen 2CV - fascinating car but a deathtrap. His choice of car was probably 100 times more dangerous than just about anyone's choice of rig. The way we humans assess risks is a fascinating area.
Well I cannot say much about that 33 footer but I do know that the single Junk Rigged Top Hat can and does beat other Top Hats ...
Hands down!
Sailing in company I have rarely beaten it. So the choice is yours.
I do believe there is a Top Hat for sale without a mast. PM me for details Mike.
Is this the TP with "junk rig" mentioned. It has a jib and the mainsail is fully battened and the luff doesn't overlap fwd of the mast like a junk mainsail. There is a 2nd part to the video series. Looks like it is sailing well - 6.1kts reaching in not a lot of wind.
Select to expand quotenswsailor said..
Well I cannot say much about that 33 footer but I do know that the single Junk Rigged Top Hat can and does beat other Top Hats ...
Hands down!
Sailing in company I have rarely beaten it. So the choice is yours.
I do believe there is a Top Hat for sale without a mast. PM me for details Mike.
It's not just that 33'er, an X-99, although the people on the JRA forum refers to its owner as the expert on "fast" junks, and he reckons is carbon-masted boat is 10% slower than an alloy-sparred standard sloop to the same design. Other evidence includes the comparison of conventional sloops versus JRs of the same hull design in the biggest British race, the national British handicaps for JR and bermudan versions of the same design, etc. The evidence across decades and across different designs is pretty strong. We also know a lot about the aerodynamics of sail performance, and there's no reason why the JR should be as fast as a sloop. David Tyler from the junk association called the famous JR Folkboat Jester "abysmally" slow upwind, and he's hardly biased against the rig.
I've watched a JR Top Hat sailing around. It does seem to go OK downwind, but the problem with comparing any small sample, like one boat against another, is that we know that even on identical boats there can be 20% difference in boatspeed or more, depending on how they are sailed and equipped. A small sample just isn't unreliable.
Personally, for running around the NSW coast what I prefer is excellent light/medium air upwind performance, because if it's breezy and downwind then any boat goes OK and will make a lot of passages within a comfortable timeframe. Other people have different desires and priorities and that's 1000% fine - but the point is that a small number of them lie about rigs, and that's not a good thing.
Select to expand quoter13 said..
Is this the TP with "junk rig" mentioned. It has a jib and the mainsail is fully battened and the luff doesn't overlap fwd of the mast like a junk mainsail. There is a 2nd part to the video series. Looks like it is sailing well - 6.1kts reaching in not a lot of wind.
Looks like it is - these 2 threads mention only one TP with junk rig, the next a "modified junk rig".
www.tophatyachts.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1426
www.sailblogs.com/member/tophat25
www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f90/any-sailing-tips-for-a-modified-junk-rig-37362.html
Other chat lines you've presumably seen.
www.junkrigassociation.org/technical_forum/9859908?tpg=4
You could debate whether that is junk-rigged or simply gaff rigged. Yes, it has the batten lines but the main does not go past the mast. The gooseneck fitting and the gaff fitting make it a slightly more complicated gaff rig.
Thanks everyone for the reply's, though no one has actually answered my question. As to the difficulty and cost of a conversion. No problems I'll keep researching.
One of the things about a junk rig is the simplicity, I'm a firm believer in the KISS principal. If that's a junk rig or roller furler with slab reefing or something else, is a question I've yet to answer.
Thanks again,
Mike.
The cost of the conversion depends how good you are at making round hollow masts. The reinforcing of the deck is no different to what Finn and OK dinghies have. The sail can be made very cheaply out of poly tarp material and battens out of PVC pipe. The junk rig is far from simple though and there are far more control lines than a Marconi rigged boat. The one saving though is there is no need for winches.
The main advantage of a junk rigged boat is they can present all their sail area dead downwind easily. The other advantage is the way the sail is reefed, in fresh conditions only a small amount of sail is left up and in survival conditions the whole lot is on the deck.
Galway Blazer to my mind is the best example of a junk rigged vessel.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_King_(Royal_Navy_officer)
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..
Thanks everyone for the reply's, though no one has actually answered my question. As to the difficulty and cost of a conversion. No problems I'll keep researching.
One of the things about a junk rig is the simplicity, I'm a firm believer in the KISS principal. If that's a junk rig or roller furler with slab reefing or something else, is a question I've yet to answer.
Thanks again,
Mike.
But how do we answer the question, without more detail? For example, you say "But how would it compare to converting to a unstayed junk rig? The sails are lots cheaper, right?"
So what's your yardstick for comparison? Why are the hypothetical sails "ready for replacing"?? What some people think are sails "ready for replacing" are sails that another person can think are fine for another four years. I've had sails that were "ready for replacing" that lasted years with a few bucks worth of stickyback. Another was probably "ready for replacing" around the year 2000, but it was used in the voyage out from New York and was still being used for racing last year. I have other sails that could take hundreds of hours of further abuse, have not a single hole or missing stitch, that I feel are long past being "ready for replacing" because they are used for different purposes.
So which sails are "ready for replacing" and how are junk sails "lots cheaper"? By what measure" If you bought a Top Hat with only a good #3 headsail and found an undersized mainsail for $100, it could still go faster and be as easy to sail in many ways as a JR Top Hat with a new sail that cost $700 to make and that goes on a $4000 mast.
Why is a junk rig sail "lots cheaper" than a bermudan sail? Sure, as Ramona says, you can build a polytarp JR sail - but you could also build a polytarp bermudan sail, too, if you wanted to accept the disadvantages. So by what measure is the JR sail cheaper?
A lot of the time it seems that the JR people are not comparing apples to apples; the JR fans are claiming that bermudan sails are "high tension" or "highly stressed" because many (not all) high-performance bermudan sails fit that description, and they are ignoring the fact that such sails are faster and used for different purposes than cheap junk cruising sails, therefore they aren't proper comparisons.
We can't give you a precise reply unless you give precise questions. SInce you asked "a general question" we can only give general answers.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..Mike367 said..
Thanks everyone for the reply's, though no one has actually answered my question. As to the difficulty and cost of a conversion. No problems I'll keep researching.
One of the things about a junk rig is the simplicity, I'm a firm believer in the KISS principal. If that's a junk rig or roller furler with slab reefing or something else, is a question I've yet to answer.
Thanks again,
Mike.
But how do we answer the question, without more detail? For example, you say "But how would it compare to converting to a unstayed junk rig? The sails are lots cheaper, right?"
So what's your yardstick for comparison? Why are the hypothetical sails "ready for replacing"?? What some people think are sails "ready for replacing" are sails that another person can think are fine for another four years. I've had sails that were "ready for replacing" that lasted years with a few bucks worth of stickyback. Another was probably "ready for replacing" around the year 2000, but it was used in the voyage out from New York and was still being used for racing last year. I have other sails that could take hundreds of hours of further abuse, have not a single hole or missing stitch, that I feel are long past being "ready for replacing" because they are used for different purposes.
So which sails are "ready for replacing" and how are junk sails "lots cheaper"? By what measure" If you bought a Top Hat with only a good #3 headsail and found an undersized mainsail for $100, it could still go faster and be as easy to sail in many ways as a JR Top Hat with a new sail that cost $700 to make and that goes on a $4000 mast.
Why is a junk rig sail "lots cheaper" than a bermudan sail? Sure, as Ramona says, you can build a polytarp JR sail - but you could also build a polytarp bermudan sail, too, if you wanted to accept the disadvantages. So by what measure is the JR sail cheaper?
A lot of the time it seems that the JR people are not comparing apples to apples; the JR fans are claiming that bermudan sails are "high tension" or "highly stressed" because many (not all) high-performance bermudan sails fit that description, and they are ignoring the fact that such sails are faster and used for different purposes than cheap junk cruising sails, therefore they aren't proper comparisons.
We can't give you a precise reply unless you give precise questions. SInce you asked "a general question" we can only give general answers.
Chris, I didn't ask for a precise reply, it was a general question, As I said "I'm looking for general information".
Is it a difficult task and is it expensive?
And the example was the rigging and sails are ready to be replaced, it's not important why, they just do.
So what would a set of sail and new rigging cost (in general) between $x and $xxx?
How much would a conversion cost? Again in general between $x and $xxx?
I was hoping someone on here had some first hand knowledge on the subject, or knew of someone who had done a conversion.
Select to expand quoteMike367 said..
For example if I had a 25 foot sloop rig where the rigging and sails were worn and ready for replacing, that would cost thousands.
It's not difficult to print the instructions on what to measure, then measure the various dimensions of the rig, foredeck, where the tracks and cleats are, etc.
For a 28' footer, my costs was only a brand new genoa, costing $2600 about 4 years ago. Some other people have different suppliers with cheaper prices. And a 25 foot TopHat will be a smaller and cheaper sail too.
As for rigging, you could do it all yourself in a 25' yacht, or you could do all the stays up to 5mm diameter, with swages or just measure and take to the shop, one by one. DIY you could do the rig for $600 minimum. A new sail will last you 15 years, and 10-15 years for rigging.
Also, there are/were sellers of 2nd hand sails on Ebay, Gumtree, etc, so you could find something acceptable that way.
Cheapest yet is to sail with someone else. And you have thought about yacht share last year too.
So various options and costs are available. The costs above are mine, from my experience.
Personally, I prefer to sail rather than do yacht maintenance, yacht building, etc. So a conversion seems to me, too much work for what little sailing we really do. I think too that the various ways of rolling up a foresail and lazyjacks address most of the reasons you are interested in junk rig.
For Sydneysiders here is the perfect boat for a junk rig. All the better if you have an old round carbon fibre Finn mast laying about [Like I do}.
www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/double-bay/sail-boats/mooring-minder-7m-southern-cross-fibreglass-double-bay/1280412767
Yeah, the idea of messing around with a JR seems like a fun activity, but honestly, I would rather be sailing than building.Select to expand quoteRamona said
You would be better off with a fibreglass folkboat with a furling jib and a slab reefing mainsail with all the reefing done from the cockpit.
I think Ramona is on the money here. How about we check this one out when lockdown finished? Not an inboard but looks tidy.
www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/434590340970030/
That's a nice folkboat but the outboard might be a problem for someone with a back ailment. If I had a crook back I would just like to press a start button.
Perhaps an offset shaft and an electric conversion!
Select to expand quoteFabulousPhill said..Mike367 said..
For example if I had a 25 foot sloop rig where the rigging and sails were worn and ready for replacing, that would cost thousands.
It's not difficult to print the instructions on what to measure, then measure the various dimensions of the rig, foredeck, where the tracks and cleats are, etc.
For a 28' footer, my costs was only a brand new genoa, costing $2600 about 4 years ago. Some other people have different suppliers with cheaper prices. And a 25 foot TopHat will be a smaller and cheaper sail too.
As for rigging, you could do it all yourself in a 25' yacht, or you could do all the stays up to 5mm diameter, with swages or just measure and take to the shop, one by one. DIY you could do the rig for $600 minimum. A new sail will last you 15 years, and 10-15 years for rigging.
Also, there are/were sellers of 2nd hand sails on Ebay, Gumtree, etc, so you could find something acceptable that way.
Cheapest yet is to sail with someone else. And you have thought about yacht share last year too.
So various options and costs are available. The costs above are mine, from my experience.
Personally, I prefer to sail rather than do yacht maintenance, yacht building, etc. So a conversion seems to me, too much work for what little sailing we really do. I think too that the various ways of rolling up a foresail and lazyjacks address most of the reasons you are interested in junk rig.
Thanks Phil,
yes I'm looking at a few different options, I've even considered chopping a hand off, buying a parrot, and going pirate :P
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
For Sydneysiders here is the perfect boat for a junk rig. All the better if you have an old round carbon fibre Finn mast laying about [Like I do}.
www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/double-bay/sail-boats/mooring-minder-7m-southern-cross-fibreglass-double-bay/1280412767
I wonder what she looks like inside???
But yes it would be worth some consideration.
Select to expand quoteDrogueOne said..
Yeah, the idea of messing around with a JR seems like a fun activity, but honestly, I would rather be sailing than building.Ramona said
You would be better off with a fibreglass folkboat with a furling jib and a slab reefing mainsail with all the reefing done from the cockpit.
I think Ramona is on the money here. How about we check this one out when lockdown finished? Not an inboard but looks tidy.
www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/434590340970030/
Sounds like a great idea, thanks for the offer.
With luck we'll be free in a few more weeks.
The outboard isn't a problem, I think you can buy electric start outboard, or I could get an electric outboard. Or is that what Ramona means by "Perhaps an offset shaft and an electric conversion!" ?
I'll ask mr google.
Cheers,
Mike.
Folkboats with inboard diesels often have a shaft out one side of the keel just ahead of the rudder.
