Recently observed a s&s 34 called Crux during the Sydney to Hobart race. It was an impressive performance. I think they won a two handed division. If I am going to spend 100 k on 33-35 footer boat what is my best option to have a Sydney to Hobart capable boat that can compete with S&S34?
There are many Beneteau and Jeanneau around and many many others will be available but I am wondering what would be the best seaworthy and the fastest boat that 100k can buy that can perform what Crux has done this year during the Sydney to Hobart. To simplify, are Beneteau first or any other modern boat faster than 1981 S&S34 or S&S had a specific handicap that help to achieve the results?
To me this is very unclear. Is it worth to buy and old S&S34 and fix it or just buy any modern boat like Beneteau first of Bavaria etc.
Eventually it will come the day when I will get rid off my little Tasman 26 and bigger boat will be purchased and I would really appreciate your opinion. I want to make a good decision and a good buy in the future. I have all the time in this world to learn how to sail (lucky enough sailing with a very experienced crew on a weekly basis) and eventually get the right boat and take them to Hobart to make a memories of our lives in 4 years time..
This is just learning from you guys. Of course if this s&s 34 boat won the race it doesn't mean that any s&s34 will.crew and many other factors are playing an important role here..I am aware of this. Thanks
Select to expand quotestray said..
Van de Stadt 34 wood epoxy or aluminium.
Ok will do my research
thank you very much
I love when an Ozzie calls another bloke sport.
So deep the nuance.
It is the classic touche.
Hi Serb I think fastest and most seaworthy are often competing characteristics. Decide which are most important to you.
Don't get hung up on brands, learn about different hull designs, different construction methods, different sail plans etc and decide what you really want to use the boat for.
Everyone has a different opinions that have personal bias. Listen to them carefully, try to seperate the wheat from the chaff and learn as much as you can and then form your own.
I've been a fan of the SS34 since 1969 and never thought I would ever get the chance to own one. Now that I do, I understand the magic. Crux is a long way from a standard SS34 and if I recall correctly was extremely expensive at the time. Mine is a long way from a standard SS34 as well but mine would have been assembled relatively cheaply from a bare hull and keel and a lot of labour.
www.ss34.org/index.php/directory/blondie/
www.ss34.org/index.php/directory/ricochetii/
If I was to spend a hundred grand on a secondhand boat to potentially sail the Sydney Hobart I'm not really sure what I would buy. It would have to be one of the past competitors that did well but would do even better now with age allowance. It would not be an SS34, UFO34 or a Van de Stadt 34. Their downwind speed would rule them out. Davidson 34's, Farr 37's, and Farr 1020's are usually less than half of your 100 grand so I'm not sure of the answer. There is a tiller steered Farr 37 near me that was bought for 42 grand and has not left the mooring in 2 years. Lovely boat to sail and even though it's bigger than the 34 foot size you mentioned it's the style I would be looking at.
Select to expand quoteSerb1980 said..
If I am going to spend 100 k on 33-35 footer boat what is my best option to have a Sydney to Hobart capable boat that can compete with S&S34?
Hi Serb,
It depends on your goal, there is a ton of faster boats than the S&S34, and very few that can meets its ability to consistently sail to its handicap. So to win a handicap race against one you just have to find a boat that sails as well to her rating. Mistral is a Lombard 34 and is the epitome of the wide beam stripped down race boat, she finished nearly 18 hours ahead of Crux (the S&S 34). But it's a handicap race, not a line honours race. So the boat that sails to or better than their handicap rating is the winner, not the fastest.
The S&S 34's success is this ability to sail to its handicap rating. The design is so good they have a propensity to hit hull speed and stay there, even if your weight distribution is not quite right, or your sail trim is a little off. Try sailing the Lombard in say light airs and anything less than perfect trim and constant trimming and you simply won't sail to its rating.
Its a two way street though, running in heavy airs and the Lombard will jump on the plane and horizon its handicap rating, whereas the S&S will keep on trucking along at hull speed.
This is part of the reason the Hobart is so good as it races north /south through some 10 odd degrees of latitude. You're crossing weather zones, whereas east/west races stay in the same weather 'window'. This typically means in a Hobart the odds are you'll get all round weather of some 30% upwind, 30% downwind and 30% reaching with conditions that range from light to heavy. A downhill flyer in heavy airs has to work really hard to windward in light airs, whereas an S&S34 will just truck along happily on its rating, albeit without the rooster tails, seemingly immune to the conditions, light, heavy or somewhere in between. Just so well mannered.
Out of speed, comfort and handicap rating, you get to pick two. I went for speed and comfort and bugger the rating. IMHO the S&S ticks comfort and rating and bugger the speed.
Cheers!
SB
I knew Crux when she was Blondie. Simon Torvaldsen had her built and I met up with Simon in Perth to spend an afternoon at Cottelsoe Yachts during the build (with Kim or Glen Swarbrick).
She is not a traditional Swarbrick built S&S34 in that, while she is from the same moulds, the glass is vacuum infused (not sure if that is the correct terminology). About 400kgs lighter and a stiffer hull than the earlier boats. I estimated at the time (2008) that Simon must have spent near $300K on her build. He is a very clever doctor with a chain of practices in WA and sailing to win was his passion, and his wife's and kids. He spent big but she is beautifully/exceptionally fitted out for cruising and racing.
The other S&S34 in the S2H, Azzurro, is also a heavily modified yacht so no real comparison with more normal S&S34s. Shane Kearns also spent big on her, maybe as much as was spent on Blondie.
I have raced on S&S34s, not mine, and the comment above about them sailing to their rating is spot on. I did a couple of races on Huckleberry in WA, she was a Mk2 version that did the 2007 or 8 S2H, was winning on handicap for some hours mid race, and is probably as close to Crux as any earlier boat. She was a good kt faster than MB and better downwind.
Even MB would get to 7 or so knots at 25 deg heel and just stay there. I was cruising with the Fleming steering and not a lot of attention to sail trim but she consistently kept to speed in anything over 12 kts of apparent wind.
I owned MB from 2005 until 2020. We did countless 2 and 3 handed miles up and down the NSW coast in her with three Lord Howe offshore trips the pinnacle. I also sailed her solo a fair few times including overnight passages.
For the length and price I have not sailed a nicer yacht. I've had to be on something like a TP52 or Lyons 54 to get the same pleasure of a boat that just heels a bit more and accelerates in gusts.
However, they are cramped inside, aren't the best downwind yacht (the Mk2 version is better but the Mk2 is rare, only maybe a dozen built and most by the bloke in Gosford (Macalpine?) who built them after Swarbricks went bust.) and of course they are now getting old except for the 3 built by Cottesloe Yachts in the early 2000s of which Crux was the last. MB was the last Swarbrick built 34, hull 119 launched at the RSYS in March 1984. I was the 2nd owner.
Not sure that assists but it provides some info on the S&S34.
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..Serb1980 said..
If I am going to spend 100 k on 33-35 footer boat what is my best option to have a Sydney to Hobart capable boat that can compete with S&S34?
Hi Serb,
It depends on your goal, there is a ton of faster boats than the S&S34, and very few that can meets its ability to consistently sail to its handicap. So to win a handicap race against one you just have to find a boat that sails as well to her rating. Mistral is a Lombard 34 and is the epitome of the wide beam stripped down race boat, she finished nearly 18 hours ahead of Crux (the S&S 34). But it's a handicap race, not a line honours race. So the boat that sails to or better than their handicap rating is the winner, not the fastest.
The S&S 34's success is this ability to sail to its handicap rating. The design is so good they have a propensity to hit hull speed and stay there, even if your weight distribution is not quite right, or your sail trim is a little off. Try sailing the Lombard in say light airs and anything less than perfect trim and constant trimming and you simply won't sail to its rating.
Its a two way street though, running in heavy airs and the Lombard will jump on the plane and horizon its handicap rating, whereas the S&S will keep on trucking along at hull speed.
This is part of the reason the Hobart is so good as it races north /south through some 10 odd degrees of latitude. You're crossing weather zones, whereas east/west races stay in the same weather 'window'. This typically means in a Hobart the odds are you'll get all round weather of some 30% upwind, 30% downwind and 30% reaching with conditions that range from light to heavy. A downhill flyer in heavy airs has to work really hard to windward in light airs, whereas an S&S34 will just truck along happily on its rating, albeit without the rooster tails, seemingly immune to the conditions, light, heavy or somewhere in between. Just so well mannered.
Out of speed, comfort and handicap rating, you get to pick two. I went for speed and comfort and bugger the rating. IMHO the S&S ticks comfort and rating and bugger the speed.
Cheers!
SB
While they don't get a rooster tail, at hull speed or when surfing they get the most delightful gurgle from the wake behind the transom. I'd try and sail the boat to keep that gurgle going it felt and sounded so good.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..shaggybaxter said..
While they don't get a rooster tail, at hull speed or when surfing they get the most delightful gurgle from the wake behind the transom. I'd try and sail the boat to keep that gurgle going it felt and sounded so good.
I had two dives and one snorkeling session during the week, mainly to clean the folding prop and get shell off the keel. Today with 15 knots of NE and a sloppy sea I had a best speed of 7.2 SOG and most of the time in the high sixes. Lazing about behind the wheel while the Aries steered is pleasant but a lot noisier than a Currawong. I find mine to be much livelier than the Currawong and I reckon it's down to the light weight deck. I reckon she is about 4500 kilos. well under the stock all 'glass boat.
Hey Uncle Bob
"Sport, learn to sail what you have before planning a s to h on some dream boat."
Rude!!!
Select to expand quoteSoloCMV said..
Hey Uncle Bob
"Sport, learn to sail what you have before planning a s to h on some dream boat."
Rude!!!
You may think so but posted with the purest of intentions. 
Perhaps a review of previous offerings from Serb may be in order.
Uncle Bob's post was 100 percent for the education of Serb. Beneficial for all of us who dream of another boat before we have gotten to appreciate what we have. The big yellow taxi syndrome.
If you want to dream a bit more head over to sailing anarchy for "Aussie/Kiwi ocean and club racers" in the Ocean Racing folder. It focuses on racing boats under $80K. The thread and its predecessor have been going for about 5 years.
A
Select to expand quoteAndrew68 said..
If you want to dream a bit more head over to sailing anarchy for "Aussie/Kiwi ocean and club racers" in the Ocean Racing folder. It focuses on racing boats under $80K. The thread and its predecessor have been going for about 5 years.
A
A lot of great knowledge above.
Serb I have a Davidson 32 (Spindrift) that was built specifically to cruise the world and did. I continue to improve it for someone to follow their dream. Look here for past posts or google Davidson 32 Spindrift.
Select to expand quoteAndrew68 said..
If you want to dream a bit more head over to sailing anarchy for "Aussie/Kiwi ocean and club racers" in the Ocean Racing folder. It focuses on racing boats under $80K. The thread and its predecessor have been going for about 5 years.
A
A lot of great knowledge above.
Serb I have a Davidson 32 (Spindrift) that was built specifically to cruise the world and did. I continue to improve it for someone to follow their dream. Look here for past posts or google Davidson 32 Spindrift.
The list of 34 footers that are faster over the water than a SS34 is extremely long. Even among similar boats, ie old 3/4 tonners, it would include Magpies, UFO 34s, M&Ws, Carters, Bounty 35s, Pawtuckets, etc. The 34 is lovely but results in the early to Mid 70s show that comparable newer designs were slightly faster
.
These days the variation in the individual boats modifications, gear and (most importantly) the crew's ability are far wider than the 1 or 2 percent that the boats above had in speed over the SS.
A 34 ft Beneteau First of any age would be at least as quick as an SS overall, but not necessarily upwind, nor on rating. A Hick 35, '80s lightweight IIOR threequarter tonner, Farr 1020, etc could be had for less than 100k in great condition and is considerably quicker than the SS and two of the three would be just as good on rating.
Last year I helped bring crux back from Hobart to Sydney. I have sailed on her a few times out of Sydney with her owner. She certainly isn't your standard s&s 34. Her sister is available to buy for only $210k! I have to say crux has a much nicer interior than constellation.
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/sparkman-stephens-34-vacuum-infused-construction/277274
Last year I helped bring crux back from Hobart to Sydney. I have sailed on her a few times out of Sydney with her owner. She certainly isn't your standard s&s 34. Her sister is available to buy for only $210k! I have to say crux has a much nicer interior than constellation.
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/sparkman-stephens-34-vacuum-infused-construction/277274
This is 33ft so about the right size. Faster than an S&S 34 but very similar size and quite a few have gone to Hobart. Bit expensive ATM. Not sure if I'd trust an autopilot, myself or anyone else tho.
Tether essential in the cockpit and maybe scuba gear. Best keep the companionway shut. Don't hit anything with the keel or rudders either.
Watch to the end. It's less than 2 mins.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
The list of 34 footers that are faster over the water than a SS34 is extremely long. Even among similar boats, ie old 3/4 tonners, it would include Magpies, UFO 34s, M&Ws, Carters, Bounty 35s, Pawtuckets, etc. The 34 is lovely but results in the early to Mid 70s show that comparable newer designs were slightly faster
.
These days the variation in the individual boats modifications, gear and (most importantly) the crew's ability are far wider than the 1 or 2 percent that the boats above had in speed over the SS.
A 34 ft Beneteau First of any age would be at least as quick as an SS overall, but not necessarily upwind, nor on rating. A Hick 35, '80s lightweight IIOR threequarter tonner, Farr 1020, etc could be had for less than 100k in great condition and is considerably quicker than the SS and two of the three would be just as good on rating.
The question I asked myself when I bought an S&S34 was how relaxed would I be in 40-60 kts and breaking seas. A boat that can survive really bad conditions without breaking and without placing big demands on the crew is most reassuring.
If an owner primarily motivated by winning races, and doesn't have $300k, an S&S34 isn't for them. They are very old technology but still a relatively quick and very safe little yacht.
Horses for courses.
SS 34's have a unique look out of the water, the shape of them sort of triggers a love affair,,, it doesn't matter how well it sails..To those affected by this love they become unable to see beauty in other boats unless it's another version of an SS design like for example : Swan Nautor 411 or a Nicolson 45 or even a Contessa 32. I find I am obsessed with the shape and although I know there are better boats and more practical boats for my needs, I cannot betray my love for that shape,,, if I own a sail boat ,, it must look like that or I don't want it.
I guess we all have our tales of record speed and close hauled wind angles but after sailing on more modern sailboats I always find my love eventually betraying me .
.
Disclaimer, I have a vested interest in this post;)
Prion (31') will beat an S&S34 every day of the week on the water and often on handicap.... depending on conditions she is more than competitive boat for boat with the likes of the sf3200 and j99....
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/mount-gay-30-cat-1-capable-exceptional-performance/280186
Select to expand quoteAll@Sea said..
Disclaimer, I have a vested interest in this post;)
Prion (31') will beat an S&S34 every day of the week on the water and often on handicap.... depending on conditions she is more than competitive boat for boat with the likes of the sf3200 and j99....
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/mount-gay-30-cat-1-capable-exceptional-performance/280186
How does it like 50+kts on the continental shelf?
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..All@Sea said..
Disclaimer, I have a vested interest in this post;)
Prion (31') will beat an S&S34 every day of the week on the water and often on handicap.... depending on conditions she is more than competitive boat for boat with the likes of the sf3200 and j99....
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/mount-gay-30-cat-1-capable-exceptional-performance/280186
How does it like 50+kts on the continental shelf?
Actually just fine given it is Mount Gay 30 and built to scantlings an S&S could only dream about.
The minimum hull core density is also why the class never really took off as they are about 500kg heavier than the inshore opposition at about 2650kg which was minimum weight.
Let alone a higher AVS.
The previous owner finished in a quite windy Hobart 2004 i think after the keel mods to give it even more AVS.
And from memory that one in original form went through a big westerly gale coming back from Lord Howe with then baby but now quite well known Volvo Race sailors on board.
The best description of an S&S 34 comes from an old mate who raced his Gurney Hotfoot against them for years accross Bass Strait.
"they sail like a half tide rock at full tide, mainly underwater'
I see no S&S 34 has ever beat the 1975 elapsed time of Morning Star, not even Azzurro this year.
Select to expand quotelydia said..
I see no S&S 34 has ever beat the 1975 elapsed time of Morning Star...
When the going gets tough I think I would like to be sitting in my cockpit not on it to say nothing of pounding when going to weather. I would feel like I was sailing my 14 foot skiff. If it was one or the other put me on the S&S 34 please unless in protected waters.
There are however many great boat designs in between these two extremes.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..Chris 249 said..
The list of 34 footers that are faster over the water than a SS34 is extremely long. Even among similar boats, ie old 3/4 tonners, it would include Magpies, UFO 34s, M&Ws, Carters, Bounty 35s, Pawtuckets, etc. The 34 is lovely but results in the early to Mid 70s show that comparable newer designs were slightly faster
.
These days the variation in the individual boats modifications, gear and (most importantly) the crew's ability are far wider than the 1 or 2 percent that the boats above had in speed over the SS.
A 34 ft Beneteau First of any age would be at least as quick as an SS overall, but not necessarily upwind, nor on rating. A Hick 35, '80s lightweight IIOR threequarter tonner, Farr 1020, etc could be had for less than 100k in great condition and is considerably quicker than the SS and two of the three would be just as good on rating.
The question I asked myself when I bought an S&S34 was how relaxed would I be in 40-60 kts and breaking seas. A boat that can survive really bad conditions without breaking and without placing big demands on the crew is most reassuring.
If an owner primarily motivated by winning races, and doesn't have $300k, an S&S34 isn't for them. They are very old technology but still a relatively quick and very safe little yacht.
Horses for courses.
Sure, I wasn't saying any of the boats I mentioned were better all-rounders.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..All@Sea said..
Disclaimer, I have a vested interest in this post;)
Prion (31') will beat an S&S34 every day of the week on the water and often on handicap.... depending on conditions she is more than competitive boat for boat with the likes of the sf3200 and j99....
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/mount-gay-30-cat-1-capable-exceptional-performance/280186
How does it like 50+kts on the continental shelf?
How does an S&S 34 do against modern racing boats for speed upwind in light winds or downwind in 15 knots? No one saying Prion is better than an S&S in 50+ knots but for many people that's not important.
I was on a 30 footer that was roughly similar to Prion when one of the most legendary and successful S&S designs of all time met the roughest seas they have met in 9 Fastnets, cruising Cape Horn, and cruising Alaska. Our light 30 footer was fine.
Years ago I asked Syd Fisher and Lou Abrahams about the comparative seaworthiness of their boats, ranging from a Lion Class, a steel Freya, through S&S designs and to IOR and ORC lightweights. Both of them said that each type had its strength and minuses in extreme conditions. Both of them said, for instance, that their IOR boat were drier in extreme Hobarts than their S&S designs; Syd was very glad that he was in a Farr IMS lightweight in the '98 Hobart rather than his famous S&S 49, which (as he said to his long time crew Tony Ellis on another occasion, when we were in Syd's boatshed after a winter race) would have been like a half tide rock.
Lou loved his S&S Vittoria (until she was modified for lower rating) but he also felt at home in tough races in his lightweight IOR one tonner, and he particularly loved the rig on his Sydney 38, which he used to singlehand home from the Hobart.
So guys who have done 50+ on many different types feel that it's not the type that is the major factor, but how good an example each boat is of that type. Even a fairly minor mod can turn a turkey into a rooster and vice versa.
