Flying just the foresail in storm conditions seems quite an excepted situation,
am I wrong in thinking the mainsail in sync with the the stays is much stronger?
is the foresail actually putting the mast in jeopardy ?
Consider the head sail is pulling on the mast and the mainsail is stowed then the topping lift via the main sheet is acting as a back stay, in conjunction with most modern rigs have a fixed back stay I'd say it's a safe enough manoeuvre. If your rig had running back stays, I would suggest both be hauled on again with the topping lift main sheet combo it would be secure.
If you have an inner forestay you may need running back stays to counter the force.
I remember an old Australian Sailing had an article saying that this was bad technique. The reason was that rigs are designed to have the main producing a force that the riggers understand and counter. But when you jump off waves without the main up, nasty oscillations can occur with no main to dampen them. I am not sure if it was just for thin IOR rigs but as others have stated, I would tighten up the runners and maybe pull some topping lift, vang and mainsheet on to try and ensure the mast doesn't invert.
Select to expand quoteKankama said..
I remember an old Australian Sailing had an article saying that this was bad technique. The reason was that rigs are designed to have the main producing a force that the riggers understand and counter. But when you jump off waves without the main up, nasty oscillations can occur with no main to dampen them. I am not sure if it was just for thin IOR rigs but as others have stated, I would tighten up the runners and maybe pull some topping lift, vang and mainsheet on to try and ensure the mast doesn't invert.
I may have written that article, It depends on the rig structure integrity. I have seen a mast come down through section failure on a swept back rig sailing with just a genoa. Surprisingly in relatively flat water? I could see it happening.
Other boats with solid sections and fore and aft lowers -no drama.In answer to your original question the loose luffed flown storm jib need hell of a lot of luff tension and strength to fly like it is on a stay>Sailing upwind in big waves we don't want excessive sag negating effiency and pumping loading mast intermittently.
I'm going to sound dumb so those how know about yacht design forgive me!
Wouldn't the yacht designer cover his boats expected sail configurations to be safe in maximum projected wind and seas be a normal engineering function?
As Magnesium said the stresses would be high and a worry but I would have expected if the sails are in the sail plan they should work. Please a yacht designer explain!
(We have enjoyed gale sailing with our storm jib often)
Trek, I reckon your boat would be fine. A solid masthead rig with fore and aft lowers is going to stay in column. What I would worry about is a thinner fractional rig sailing to windward over waves without a main. If that was me I would wind the backstay on, try to get forward mast bend (it should be prebent) and then use checkstays (are they still around?) to stop the mast pumping. Sailing downwind with just a scrap of jib is fine. I don't know how people sail to windward with just a storm jib up. One of the classic 98 Hobart shots has a pic of Rambler sailing to windward in atrocious conditions, but they do have checkstays and it looks like they are fore reaching not totally closehauled.
Look carefully you will see the inner forestay out to the bow
Also all boat balance differently under storm gear
IMS boat like that balance just fine with no try sail or nain
indeed too much helm with them as all depends on keel position
One well known IMS 43 sailed a bit on the rule was storm gear on by 35 true try sail off at 45 true and the storm gear had been made smaller than regulation
about size for a 36 footer
brilliant uphill
You also get the freaky thing of the foils stalling out when under that much load
Boat just slips sideways
Like a laser with only 1/3 of the board down K
You have to sheet off bear away attach flow then go upwind again
In the Bobsled pic that is happening and you see the rudder is completely the wrong way
Look carefully you will see the inner forestay out to the bow
Also all boat balance differently under storm gear
IMS boat like that balance just fine with no try sail or nain
indeed too much helm with them as all depends on keel position
One well known IMS 43 sailed a bit on the rule was storm gear on by 35 true try sail off at 45 true and the storm gear had been made smaller than regulation
about size for a 36 footer
brilliant uphill
You also get the freaky thing of the foils stalling out when under that much load
Boat just slips sideways
Like a laser with only 1/3 of the board down K
You have to sheet off bear away attach flow then go upwind again
In the Bobsled pic that is happening and you see the rudder is completely the wrong way
Select to expand quotelydia said..
Look carefully you will see the inner forestay out to the bow
Also all boat balance differently under storm gear
IMS boat like that balance just fine with no try sail or nain
indeed too much helm with them as all depends on keel position
One well known IMS 43 sailed a bit on the rule was storm gear on by 35 true try sail off at 45 true and the storm gear had been made smaller than regulation
about size for a 36 footer
brilliant uphill
You also get the freaky thing of the foils stalling out when under that much load
Boat just slips sideways
Like a laser with only 1/3 of the board down K
You have to sheet off bear away attach flow then go upwind again
In the Bobsled pic that is happening and you see the rudder is completely the wrong way
Looks more like the topper for the pole rather than an inner forestay as it is really low.
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
I doubt you can sail off a lee shore with a storm Jib
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
Wow that would have been fun. Had you even sailed the boat before to know how to rig the storm jib...
Didn't you buy it with a totally rotten deck or a bit of the deck missing?
No shortage of pics of Jessica Watson under small furled jib alone (maybe not to windward although the second picture looks like it might be) although it's important to note that yours is a masthead rig like hers so the back stay has a pretty much direct connection to the forestay and like you say a pretty solid keel stepped section.
Jules - Ramona spent a heap of time at Kogarah Bay retrieving that boat from the grave including suitable deck repairs and knew well how to sail it including setting storm sails back to his mooring on the South Coast without the diesel operational. Obviously he has spent another heap of time to get it up to the condition it is in now at minimal cost, an enormous credit to him.
Select to expand quoteMAGNESIUM said..
I doubt you can sail off a lee shore with a storm Jib
I don't want to try this, but here's what the designer says about Wapiti's rig
The cutter rig, with in-line spreaders, twin lower shrouds and running backstays for use when the staysail is set, allows a range of sailplans from a 130% genoa in good conditions to staysail alone when it is possible to still make progress to windward in 60knots of wind.
Select to expand quotejulesmoto said..
No shortage of pics of Jessica Watson under small furled jib alone (maybe not to windward although the second picture looks like it might be) although it's important to note that yours is a masthead rig like hers so the back stay has a pretty much direct connection to the forestay and like you say a pretty solid keel stepped section.
Those pictures of the pink lady where taken when Jessica was waiting out off the Sydney Heads because her welcome home party wasn't ready for her., she was just killing time,
Her storm jib was flown on the inner stay and supported with check stays. it was a bright orange hank on sail and she flew it quite alot.
Select to expand quoteMAGNESIUM said..Ramona said..
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
I doubt you can sail off a lee shore with a storm Jib
I bet I could if I had too! I have a storm jib but it resides in my sail room at home. I would do exactly the same as Jessica in the photo above when she was South of Tasmania. I followed her blog and bought the book and Jessica has been inspirational. Note the photo on my bulkhead.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..MAGNESIUM said..Ramona said..
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
I doubt you can sail off a lee shore with a storm Jib
I bet I could if I had too! I have a storm jib but it resides in my sail room at home. I would do exactly the same as Jessica in the photo above when she was South of Tasmania. I followed her blog and bought the book and Jessica has been inspirational. Note the photo on my bulkhead.
Is that CAD model on your wall done using Rhino, I am doing a online Rhino course at the moment for some entertainment
Select to expand quoteRamona said..MAGNESIUM said..Ramona said..
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
I doubt you can sail off a lee shore with a storm Jib
I bet I could if I had too! I have a storm jib but it resides in my sail room at home. I would do exactly the same as Jessica in the photo above when she was South of Tasmania. I followed her blog and bought the book and Jessica has been inspirational. Note the photo on my bulkhead.
Would be pretty rare to see sailing clubs trying to sail off the beach with their jibs, even on a good day never mind winds that warrant a storm jib.
Some boats sail to windward very nicely on the head sail alone and others won't, depends on where the centre of effort of sail is in comparison to the keels resistance. The Catalina 350 we hired earlier in the year sailed happily to windward on the headsail alone but my gaff ketch to make windward progress headsail needs to be reduced or completely furled and use the main and mizzen
Select to expand quotecammd said..Ramona said..MAGNESIUM said..Ramona said..
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
I doubt you can sail off a lee shore with a storm Jib
I bet I could if I had too! I have a storm jib but it resides in my sail room at home. I would do exactly the same as Jessica in the photo above when she was South of Tasmania. I followed her blog and bought the book and Jessica has been inspirational. Note the photo on my bulkhead.
Is that CAD model on your wall done using Rhino, I am doing a online Rhino course at the moment for some entertainment
Nup. It's just a picture from the interweb!
Select to expand quoteMAGNESIUM said..Ramona said..MAGNESIUM said..Ramona said..
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
I doubt you can sail off a lee shore with a storm Jib
I bet I could if I had too! I have a storm jib but it resides in my sail room at home. I would do exactly the same as Jessica in the photo above when she was South of Tasmania. I followed her blog and bought the book and Jessica has been inspirational. Note the photo on my bulkhead.
Would be pretty rare to see sailing clubs trying to sail off the beach with their jibs, even on a good day never mind winds that warrant a storm jib.
` There is a particularly good video about of a race in Scandinavia where a large fleet sails offshore against the tide into a gale. I think the video was on here at one stage. The variations in the rigs selected by the crews made it interesting. There was the usual shortened down rig and even some with storm jibs and trysails but there were a lot with just mainsails and several with just furled headsails. The SS36 in this photo was one of them.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..MAGNESIUM said..Ramona said..
When I brought my SS34 home from Sydney I sailed into a strong Southerly which went to 45+ for about 8 hours. When the S first arrived I dropped down to the second reef and half the headsail. When the wind freshened further I dropped the main completely and close reached under the headsail. The hydraulic backstay was tensioned up but I doubt whether the keel stepped mast bent at all, the section is large. The Aries windvane steered the boat perfectly. The only problem was the boat would not tack with just the headsail so I tacked the long way around! The only damage was a stanchion ripped out of the deck when the flailing sheet caught on it.
Storm headsails have to be sized correctly. They can be too small. You have to be able to sail off a lee shore with just a storm jib.
I doubt you can sail off a lee shore with a storm Jib
I bet I could if I had too! I have a storm jib but it resides in my sail room at home. I would do exactly the same as Jessica in the photo above when she was South of Tasmania. I followed her blog and bought the book and Jessica has been inspirational. Note the photo on my bulkhead.
With respect Ramona,
Definitely not south of Tasmania,
60 miles off Sydney the day before Jessica finished.
