Len76, It sounds as though you have not been around boats much either. For me it was a case of do it now or regret it forever, I purchased my 47ft Steel Sloop about 6 months ago, I have been on and off boats for a while and it was driving me crazy living in the country so far away from what I love (the ocean). I recommend going to an open type marina and meeting people and finding their opinions, do a few courses that will introduce you to other yachties. Sailing and living aboard any boat is not as easy and carefree as it looks. There is hard work and a lot of money that needs to be poured into your new investment. For example, Licence, Registration and insurance are must haves. If you wish to be in a marina they are all compulsary. Another very good licence to obtain is a VHF Radio Licence. Then there are the items to have on board by law, Epirb, Flares etc.. We are quite lucky here in Australia when it comes to living at anchor, and the majority of time you will be left alone, however, you make an ass of yourself and other boaties get annoyed very quickly. For me the thing that I love the most is when I get bored at one place I move on, this has taken me from Scarborough (Brisbane) to Yeppoon and Great Keppel Island. My next leg is to the famous Whitsunday Islands where I am hoping to stay for a while.

Len76 said..

3). What costs are associated with liveaboard yachts? Mooring fees? Insurance? Liveaboard fees (at marina)? Marina fees?

My whole deal with wanting to buy a yacht to live on is because I am sick and tired of paying rent. However, if owning a yacht means I have to pay 20k a year in fees and insurances and fines and permits and licences etc, well there's no point is there?

I hate to burst your bubble, but based on the above comment, forget it! OK, it may be possible to buy an old cheap yacht, move to some third world country, and live a reclusive live on a low budget. But if you want to be anywhere near any metro area, still have a social and work life, liveaboard at very low budget is not viable.

Just a quick guess, you will need:
$60,000 - $150,000 for a livable/sailworthy yacht (30' +)
Annual costs:
$6000 Marina fee
$3000 Repairs & maintenance (for a good year where nothing major needs fixing)
$2000 Insurance and rego
$1000 Fuel

The only people who liveaboard are ones who absolutely loves the yachting lifestyle, and is willing to sacrifice many things for it. And you haven't even been around boats much, let alone a sailing boat.


edit: Having said all that, have a look at this for a deal you can't refuse :)
www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Boating-Sail-Boats/~au45c/2008-Roberts-Offshore-38-0.aspx?search=DzWVP$SP$8wlXTxthAj!4A==

Thanks guys, I sincerely appreciate the responses. I really do. I think the only real way to learn this lifestyle is to take the advice of people who have done it or are doing it. I wholeheartedly admit that I know next to nothing about yachts. I admit that I am naive. I also admit that I may annoy people buy making stupid statements that I don't (yet) know are actually stupid. So, just bare with me, because I really am quite serious :)

QLDCruiser said..
Living aboard and learning to sail are two separate and independent issues. Wander around a few marinas and talk to people, and you'll find plenty that have been living aboard, at that place, for years and probably can't remember the last time they sailed their boat anywhere. Look at the growth on the bottom - if you see a flourishing ecosystem of weed, barnacles, fish etc you can be pretty sure it is a long time since that boat had some exercise. So in other words, you can live aboard quite successfully without knowing much about sailing - not that I would recommend it of course.

I think that I might try and get a SMALL liveaboard at a marina (at first), and then figure out ways of learning how to sail it - whether it be by inviting friends to help me, or doing a course, or both. But I think I need to get some kind of yacht licence to sail it yeah? So, I'll have to go through that process. But at first, I guess I can just live on there until I figure out how to sail it. Then, once I know how, I might switch to living off the anchor.

QLDCruiser said..
Learning to sail: while you can certainly learn a lot from the web and by personal trial and error experience, I'd recommend as many outings on other boats as you can manage. The easiest way to do this is to offer yourself as crew at any yacht club. While you may not have any specific interest in racing, if you keep your eyes open and talk to people you will quickly get an understanding of the basics of sailing a boat.

Yeah, I don't think I am overly interested in racing - but I am DEFINITELY interested in learning to sail and navigating. I want to buy some land in Fiji, and if I know how to get there and back on a yacht, that would be great. So, that would be my first goal/objective.

QLDCruiser said..
Living on the anchor is possible, and is certainly cheaper than paying marina fees. Although people do live like this, I wouldn't want to. Every trip for groceries, fresh water and other supplies involves the dinghy. It's not a good idea to leave a boat unattended on anchor for long periods. And there are some restrictions about where you can anchor (semi) permananently.

OKies.. yeah.. I think I'd want to have a decent dingy. If I have a very small yacht, which I intend on getting first (maybe a 27'), I will park it in the marina. But then maybe I will upgrade to a 55' yacht and have a tinny, and live off the anchor? Maybe after a year or two when I actually know what I am doing, and there's no chance of me plowing through a marina of mega yachts. I probably wouldn't be too popular :)

ShantiII said..

Len76, It sounds as though you have not been around boats much either.

No, I haven't - apart form working on the ships on the wharfs (oh and the rig tenders), but that's different. However, I really do love boats. I have always loved them. I've just never had the opportunity in life to be around them I guess. But I LOVE the ocean. I can never be far from the ocean, and I spend hours just staring out onto the ocean. I couldn't stand not living near the ocean and not constantly being able to look over the ocean. That's the truth. I might not know anything about boats, but I DO love and spend time at the ocean, constantly -- which is playing a huge role in me wanting to live on the ocean.

ShantiII said..
For me it was a case of do it now or regret it forever, I purchased my 47ft Steel Sloop about 6 months ago, I have been on and off boats for a while and it was driving me crazy living in the country so far away from what I love (the ocean). I recommend going to an open type marina and meeting people and finding their opinions, do a few courses that will introduce you to other yachties. Sailing and living aboard any boat is not as easy and carefree as it looks. There is hard work and a lot of money that needs to be poured into your new investment. For example, Licence, Registration and insurance are must haves. If you wish to be in a marina they are all compulsary. Another very good licence to obtain is a VHF Radio Licence. Then there are the items to have on board by law, Epirb, Flares etc.. We are quite lucky here in Australia when it comes to living at anchor, and the majority of time you will be left alone, however, you make an ass of yourself and other boaties get annoyed very quickly. For me the thing that I love the most is when I get bored at one place I move on, this has taken me from Scarborough (Brisbane) to Yeppoon and Great Keppel Island. My next leg is to the famous Whitsunday Islands where I am hoping to stay for a while.

There you go. VHF Radio Licence I didn't know I need one of those. So, I'll add that to my list :)

It sounds like you have been having a great life. See, you are an inspiration to me already :D

GrumpySmurf said..

Len76 said..

3). What costs are associated with liveaboard yachts? Mooring fees? Insurance? Liveaboard fees (at marina)? Marina fees?

My whole deal with wanting to buy a yacht to live on is because I am sick and tired of paying rent. However, if owning a yacht means I have to pay 20k a year in fees and insurances and fines and permits and licences etc, well there's no point is there?

I hate to burst your bubble, but based on the above comment, forget it! OK, it may be possible to buy an old cheap yacht, move to some third world country, and live a reclusive live on a low budget. But if you want to be anywhere near any metro area, still have a social and work life, liveaboard at very low budget is not viable.

Just a quick guess, you will need:
$60,000 - $150,000 for a livable/sailworthy yacht (30' +)
Annual costs:
$6000 Marina fee
$3000 Repairs & maintenance (for a good year where nothing major needs fixing)
$2000 Insurance and rego
$1000 Fuel

The only people who liveaboard are ones who absolutely loves the yachting lifestyle, and is willing to sacrifice many things for it. And you haven't even been around boats much, let alone a sailing boat.


edit: Having said all that, have a look at this for a deal you can't refuse :)
www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Boating-Sail-Boats/~au45c/2008-Roberts-Offshore-38-0.aspx?search=DzWVP$SP$8wlXTxthAj!4A==

Well, I was gonna buy a 27 foot yacht with a head (toilet and shower) in the front for around $40k. I figure that it's small enough to learn how to sail, but not too small that I couldn't live in it (just while I am learning). I have always lived alone (on land), so my current rental varies between $13000 and $15000 a year - depending on where I am living. Those costs above add up to $12000. So (and I am not just trying to be obstinate, but), I think I can afford it. Also, I earn my living online - so I don't have to leave the yacht to keep my income coming in.

whiteout said..

Vendor finance is for real estate not yachts the seller what's the full price up front not 25years later. Len you must think yachties are stupid .

In all honesty, I have not given any thought at all to the intelligence of yachties. It hasn't crossed my mind - period. The only things that have been through my head so far is that I want to figure out what I need to do to live on a yacht. However, since you bring it up - I am sure yachties are quite intelligent if that helps you at all! :)

However, I was offering to give yachties $30k for a $20k yacht over 2 years (and the option to pay it off in a lump sum, if I get the money - which I actually expect to get/have early next year). I don't know too many places that will give you $10k profit over 2 years with a $20k investment.

whiteout said..
I live aboard my yacht and have done so for the last 10 years boating is either very pleasing pastime or very expensive and usually a bit of both. I have spent a small fortune keeping my boat up-to date and seaworthy.

Houses cost a lot of money too. Rates, water, fees, insurance, repairs. Just sayin'..

whiteout said..
You stick to buying a house

I am going to buy some land in Fiji and build an off grid house. But I need a yacht so I can get there and back.

whiteout said..



I lived on this for the first 8 years then saved enough money for a bigger yacht good luck in your endeavours.

That looks very similar to the 27' yachts I am interested in.

Anyways, thanks for your responses guys. I really do appreciate it.

I live in Werrribee, Victoria. Is there anyone close to me that I can come visit? I don't have any yacht friends. But I am very friendly and very interested in yachts. I'd love to come and hang out with you for a day!

I also visit QLD a lot. Maybe next time I am up I can come say Hi? Anyone from QLD?

I am REALLY interested in living aboard a boat, and it's not solely for financial reasons. I really love the ocean, and I love being near the ocean. I understand that I am a noob and I am probably (unintentionally) annoying. But I am really genuine and serious.

The only reason I was trying to see if someone would let me pay a boat off is because I am impatient to get started :D

However, I am about to launch a company which I expect to make a lot of money from - so I think by early next year I'll be able to buy a boat outright (and afford all the costs).

Costs are just details for me right now. I have come to understand that it's actually more important for me to actually know how to sail a yacht, and also have all the right licences and permits - and to get started on the right track.

So, maybe I should ask for more advice in that department. What do you guys recommend there?

cisco said..

Len76 said..

Thanks guys, I sincerely appreciate the responses. I really do. I think the only real way to learn this lifestyle is to take the advice of people who have done it or are doing it. I wholeheartedly admit that I know next to nothing about yachts. I admit that I am naive. I also admit that I may annoy people buy making stupid statements that I don't (yet) know are actually stupid. So, just bare with me, because I really am quite serious :)

You just need to ask yourself one question and answer it honestly.

It is:-"Am I a landlubber or a mariner?"

When you know the answer to that question, you will know everything you need to do to achieve your aims.

From a person who has a reasonable experience of both real estate and yachting (real estate tends to make you rich and yachting tends to make you poor), I have to suggest that it is a better idea to have your real estate support your yachting than the other way around.

Further, real estate, yachting and sex have one thing in common. You should get as much as possible of each while you are still young. Yachting supported by real estate will probably get you plenty of sex.

Well, I am gonna buy a yacht and live on it. So that makes me a mariner. A mariner that has never sailed a boat lol. But I'll get to that part.

I know I wont have a problem. I just know. I'm meant to be in a yacht. That's why I want to buy one and live on it. And I am gonna do it.

cisco said..

Len76 said..
I am really trying to learn about yachts, but I don't know anyone who owns one. I don't even know anyone who knows anyone who has one. But I want to learn ho to sail one and also buy one to live on;. Can anyone put me under their wing and help me out? I really wanna live on a yacht and learn to sail it.

You are talking about 27' yachts and talking about commuting between Aus and Fiji.

Unless you are the ultimate intrepid sailor prepared to meet all challenges relying on your past experiences, I suggest you buy nothing less than a well designed 30 footer as exampled by the two below. As it is likely you will be sailing solo or short handed, I suggest you buy nothing bigger than the third example below.

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=15154619&Silo=Stock&Vertical=Boat&Ridx=26&eapi=2

www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=15265303&Silo=Stock&Vertical=Boat&Ridx=27&eapi=2

www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=15275199&Silo=Stock&Vertical=Boat&Ridx=110&eapi=2

All of them need money spent on them to bring them up to scratch but figureing that out is part of the learning process toward becoming self reliant and self reliance is the key to the whole deal.

Whether a decision you make is good or bad does not matter. What matters is that you MAKE a decision.

Keep your own counsel.

Hey, they are great examples - much akin to what I am looking for.

They are not too small, so I don't have to crawl around on my hands and knees all day.

Plus, they look reasonably clean and about what I want to pay. Around $20k.

I certainly don't know enough about yachts to know which ones can be sailed solo or not - but yeah, I must have one that can be sailed solo. Because I will be sailing it by myself.

Thanks for these examples. I appreciate the time you took to get them.

cisco said..

Len76 said..
Thanks for these examples. I appreciate the time you took to get them.

Took no time at all. I have been watching them for months, especially the Santana 30 which is a Doug Peterson design.

I wouldn't know the difference between Doug Peterson and Whoopi Goldberg, lol.

But they all look like nice boats. They're beauties!

cisco said..

Doug Peterson was on the Amercan's design team or head of it before the advent of multi hulls in the America's Cup races and after Australia first won it from the Americans way back.

There are many successful Doug Peterson design racing yachts in Australia that generally date to the early 80s.

Does that mean if I got a Doug Peterson design, I could get to and from Fiji faster?

*Serious question (sorry if it's stupid).

cisco said..

Len76 said..
Does that mean if I got a Doug Peterson design, I could get to and from Fiji faster?

Than what?? A jet?? No.

I mean would a Doug Peterson design get there faster than another boat that maybe wasn't designed for racing?

ie: Maybe a regular yacht can get there in 2 weeks but a Doug Peterson can get there 3 days earlier because it's a racing design?

Also (I've been wondering), what is the largest yacht someone can sail solo?

Len76 said..

cisco said..

Len76 said..
Does that mean if I got a Doug Peterson design, I could get to and from Fiji faster?

Than what?? A jet?? No.

I mean would a Doug Peterson design get there faster than another boat that maybe wasn't designed for racing?

ie: Maybe a regular yacht can get there in 2 weeks but a Doug Peterson can get there 3 days earlier because it's a racing design?

Also (I've been wondering), what is the largest yacht someone can sail solo?

Mate, I would not look at speed over comfort in the water. Everything depends on will it get you there safely and will you enjoy the trip. Sailing solo is not as easy as it looks. I have sailed my girl solo and although it withstood the rough better than I did it was not a pleasureable experience at all and Shanti II is a 47ft Steel Boden designed yacht. I would prefer my cruiser over a racer anyday they are tough and fast but mine is my home.
There are so many people that wish to crew boats, like yourself, if you find that you are to be sailing solo see if you can find a crewie to come along. The biggest thing is learn what you are doing before the big adventurous trips, even seasoned sailers get caught out in the rough sometimes. Try small trips first, get used to how the boat handles. Study weather, see for yourself why people have been sailing certain routes at certain times for a reason. Then try bigger trips within radio range of the coast. When you think that you have mastered the easy stuff (know that you have not really), then try a trip out of radio range, you then realise that being alone is a real entity and people need to get used to that feeling. Being alone at sea is tough. Then come back in and decide for yourself what you really want to do. All of this can take people years to decide or just a few months, either way, by 6 months you will either love it or hate it. There are realistic limits to the size of vessel to be sailed solo, you my friend are not even away from the dock yet, so be calm and travel safe.

In all honesty Len76, I do not have any experience with racing whatsoever so I am the wrong person to ask for this. I know that when I purchased Shanti II I was very naive and did not realise how much I was going to learn, and continue learning. I was very lucky to have another skipper give me some great advice after I was busted in a storm. I was ready to walk away from my dream and this great fellow came aboard and taught me how to turn my boat in a 360 using propwalk. It inspired me to go forth and learn so much more. Now I am here. My biggest piece of advice I will give anybody is that stuff happens and things change all the time. Do not hold yourself to a fixed timescale because in sailing (boating) you will get dissapointed if you do. Remain flexable, if something does not seem right then it probably isn't. As for sailing to Fiji, if you were sailing with me it would take months because I stop everywhere and try to see as much as possible. The first lesson for you is to work out how far away Fiji is in Nautical Miles, then work out how long it will take you if you were going say 5-6 knots in your boat. This is quite simple stuff. Now work out if you plan to get sleep, need to work on the boat, become becalmed, fuel, sightseeing, bad weather, sickness. I know you enjoy being alone, heck so do I, but sometimes it is not feasable.

One of the other great things that I learned was from Kelly at the Scarborough Boat Chandlery. Here I was up to my armpits in sewerage, paint and worst of all Electronics. I am an ex Soldier who had no experience with most of this. I asked her if she knew of any electricians that understood how NMEA worked. She said yes and that if I came back in a week with the same problem she would give me his name. She then informed me to sort the problem out myself because at sea, nobody is there to help when it goes wrong. Sure enough it took me a week but I figured it out myself. What I am saying is that like before stuff goes wrong, if you want to upset yourself live by a timescale otherwise only give it to yourself as a very flexible guide.

If we are taking this seriously, the last yacht Cisco linked is an S&S34 very similar to my boat. I personally don't like the way the cockpit is set up but I can assure you a well maintained S&S34 will get you there in all weathers, will be reasonably quick and can be sailed solo even with little experience. A bit small down below but adequate, couples do live aboard them.
That boat needs a lot of work and I do worry about the various bracing bits I can see in the photos, usually a sign of weakness in the structure. Just a guess but $20,000 ( a new rig on that one will be about $8000) and a lot of your own time would make it a safe and capable offshore yacht. Buy it for $25000, a fair discount in this market, and you would have a very good boat.
If you are near Sydney I could take you out on mine for a few hours to show you the ropes.

ShantiII said..


Regarding distance - ok, let's see:

Brisbane to Suva is 2794 kilometers!

www.mapcrow.info/Distance_between_Suva_FJ_and_Brisbane_AS.html

Convert to nautical miles:

www.calculateme.com/length/kilometers/to-nautical-miles/

1508 Nautical Miles!

Ok, so how do I calculate 5-6 knots over 1508 nautical miles?




This bit is easy knots are Nautical Miles per hour. It is simply tradition that is still called knots instead of NM/H. So at 6 knots at that distance all perfect weather and so on you are looking at about 251 hours or 10 days. So a good time factor would be about a fortnight.

Ah, thanks. That sounds pretty cool. A 2 week trip! Sounds like fun :)

Thanks!

I guess the only scary part is that it would be hard to know what weather is coming in 1 week from now. So you could very easily find yourself 1/2 way and in the middle of a pretty bad storm - or even worse, a cyclone!

I'd probably stop at New Caledonia or something if I got 1/2 way and the weather started looking scary.

Len76 said..

Just a quick question about engines.

Do inboard yacht engines just serve as a motor to get yachts along? Or do they also function as electricity generators?

ie: If it's cold and you have a yacht on a swing mooring, can you crank the engine and get some heat/electricity out of it?

I use a generator to do the main electricity work, the engine is able to recharge both the engine and house batteries but I only use this option when I am motoring not at anchor or mooring.

Yes I have both, as do all of the boats that I have been on, stinkboats and sail.

gyccrewman said..

Thought I'd come add my novice 2c.
Three main topics I see

Firstly, how to sail.
I believe in sailing, nothing beats experience but there is some valuable theory you need under your belt. I was very happy with the teaching I had through the RYA teaching. Good mix of theory and practical. If u like books, I have found books.google.com.au/books?id=-azvIqNZEDUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&hl=en
A good read. But that could become a whole other thread.

Secondly, live aboard,
The longest I've been on board at a single time is only 5 days. I do hope to work towards the live a board life like I'm sure any sailor would. I have enjoyed reading some blogs off www.mysailing.com.au/destinations/blogs
Along with other articles of interest. Another option is that you could find a boat traveling the east coast that needs crew. One place you could do this is www.findacrew.net/
Maybe you should test the waters a little first???

Thirdly, boat ownership,
A surveyor would be a must to help avoid over capitalising. And from my understanding would be required for insurance on anything over 20yrs old. Once again experience is how you learn and like mentioned if you do your own maintenance you should be better prepared for working out how to fix it while your floating in the middle of the pacific in your flower pot. But don't listen to me because I haven't owned anything more than a 14ft skiff. Lol.

And as for single hand sailing a 55ft. I would say picture a shopping centre carpark. 20' is like driving a car, 30' a 4x4, and 55' is like a bus. It's not an issue out on the open road and sure you can set up yachts with furling jibs and easy jacks to help set sail but try manuvoring within a marina and trying to set off from a pontoon that your being blown onto or off and I,d imagine you'd run out of hands pretty quick. As for me I've been at the helm with these sizes but always with a few crew.

Thanks mate. I appreciate your reply, but I am leaving these forums, because there are unleashed trolls here which make it impossible to have a proper dialogue.

I just wanted to drop a note to thank you for your response. I read it and appreciate it.