Steering wheel angle

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vdvoort
vdvoort
4 posts
4 posts
8 Oct 2010 10:33pm
Hi, im thinking of building a land yacht but im still struggling with some issues. Oh and please note that english is not my native language.

The thing is, i can see that almost every land yacht is steering its front wheel under a certain angle. Why is this? I tried searching this forum but i can't find it. I tried some steering with a scale model and i couldn't find a major difference between the steering performance. However i can imagine that the forces would be better distributed if the wheel is turning under an angle and the force is coming from the front.

|
O

and

. /
O

Are there any differences beside this one? I don't expect mathematical explanations but i just wonder if there are more differences.

My next question would be, what angle for what use? This, because i'm wondering why there are so much differences between the angles of different land yachts...
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
9 Oct 2010 3:48am
Welcome to the forum

Land yachts are a little different from most other wheeled vehicles as they have to cope with side force from the sail so it is important that a line drawn through the pivot of the steering meets the point where the tyre touches the ground
Side force then does not affect the steering
The now common 30 degree angle is good because as the wheel turns it lays over and the side forces are not scuffing the tyre off the rim as much
A bicycle does this by leaning into the turn Landyachts are often leaning the other way away from the turn
Hope this helps
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
10 Oct 2010 7:36pm
go have a look at some bikes,motor bikesetc, anything with one front steerable wheel. as Hiko says the steering pivot needs to align with the contact point of the tyre
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
10 Oct 2010 11:43pm
When the line of the steering axis coincides with the centre of the tyre contact patch the steering will be neutral.

If the line is in front of the patch the steering will have "trail" like the wheels on a shopping trolley. The steering will self centre and the yacht may be heavy to steer.

If the line is behind the patch the steering will have "lead" and if released will try to invert itself towards trail. This is why all cars have "trail" and will self centre when the steering wheel is let go.

A small amount of trail is not a bad thing but in the case of a land yacht, it will be able to sail itself.
aus230
aus230
WA
1660 posts
WA, 1660 posts
10 Oct 2010 10:47pm
I use 25m of trail on aus230. Mainly that if I have to push the dam thing it will go in a straight line (better than carring the front end)
Cheers
aus230
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
11 Oct 2010 10:18am
25 metres of trail Vic? Geez, that must be the reason for those spectacular shots of aus 230 standing on her front wheel.

Seriously though I think you have it dead right. With my blokart, if the wind drops off and I try to get back home by standing on the rear axle and scootering with one leg, it will not hold a straight line and I have to lean forward to grab the steering bar which makes the scootering difficult.

My LLF Mini is the same but at least I can build a new front fork to correct it.
aus230
aus230
WA
1660 posts
WA, 1660 posts
11 Oct 2010 9:46am
Bloody metric system should have quoted in real measurement = 1inch
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
11 Oct 2010 8:54pm
that would exxplain why i had to fight it back into a straight line
aus230
aus230
WA
1660 posts
WA, 1660 posts
11 Oct 2010 10:37pm
Nope, it had that 8" wheel on it when you had a go(I changed from the 20" wheel setup after the marathon), it was 30mm in lead. I checked it when I got home. I knew somthing was not right, its fixed now
vdvoort
vdvoort
4 posts
4 posts
12 Oct 2010 10:36pm
thanks everyone, made a lot of sense and the shopping cart example is a good way to explain it. I read some articles about the alignment but i never really got trough the whole thing, mainly the technical english is sometimes a problem and google translate isnt always the solution.

What do you guys think about the wheel thickness and diameter? I know it depends on the wishes you have with speed, resistance, availability, dimensions but lets say i want to ride from the beach through the shallow water. I would like to feel the water splashing up on a sunny windy day :) What do you guys the minimum thickness of the tire should be? A normal bicycle tire is about 4cm wide. Could twice that be enough or do you need more? You probably could calculate it but there is no fun in that. but lets say the land yacht has the weight of a blokart + me = 110 kg

Love to hear your thoughts, expertise and experience about this.

PS.
It good to see the familiar atmosphere in this forum.
iand
iand
QLD
243 posts
QLD, 243 posts
13 Oct 2010 1:06am
If by beach you mean the dry sand, a tyre like this might be the go and the ride would certainly be interesting

iand
iand
QLD
243 posts
QLD, 243 posts
13 Oct 2010 9:44am
On the hard sand 4.8/4.0-8 (note the difference in the way the tyre sits on different width rims)
if you go narrower increase the diameter eg. 24x2

or somethink radical for hard smooth surfaces a 7wheeler

aus230
aus230
WA
1660 posts
WA, 1660 posts
13 Oct 2010 9:50pm
Did you ever get to try the roller blades ?
iand
iand
QLD
243 posts
QLD, 243 posts
14 Oct 2010 12:39am
yes (bit noisy and solid ride) but the wind was all over the place to get a good idea the couple of times I tried them and it was just one more unknown while I was sorting the rig, possibly dust them off an have another play in the future but have been considering another build lately(was very keen about a year ago but had trouble getting the information I needed, I think Lachlan and Gizmo had the same problem)
tassiefubar
tassiefubar
TAS
113 posts
TAS, 113 posts
14 Oct 2010 7:30pm
Our 16" Girls' bike wheel on our first mini is starting to show signs of terminal wear. Now that we have a better understanding of the steering issues....(many thanks to all you guys on this forum!!) we are thinking of building a LLM style system.
I've been given a set of three heavy duty wheel barrow wheels that were supposed to find their way onto a friend's powered hang glider. They are brand new, which is nice, but they do seem to be significantly wider in profile. I wonder if this will seriously compromise performance?
The troops got the "new" stock car seat mounted today...looks nice and safe We didn't have a camera so may get some pics organised soon. The weather map looks a bit, "too interesting" for the next two days.
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
15 Oct 2010 7:36pm
There is an issue with width of tyres with the LLM system. we have found that when the wheel gets "fat " compared to the diameter it gets a speed wobble up . I think that that fat wheel that iand posted would come into that category , but somebody would need to try it
iand
iand
QLD
243 posts
QLD, 243 posts
16 Oct 2010 11:07am
Soft sand & through water aren't conducive to high speed but need the foot print
Prime example is the Ludic -fat tyres for soft uneven terrain (going ape), narrow for hi-speed
The other thing worth noting is the end of boom sheeting/downhaul without a rowlock, something I've only seen on centre sheeting before
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
17 Oct 2010 7:59pm
the rowlock bit is because the downhaul part of the rig is pulling the front of the boom back, and working against the rear sheeting that is pushing forward.
it appears to be only a 2:1 system too
vdvoort
vdvoort
4 posts
4 posts
21 Oct 2010 6:26pm
Ok, im back. Little holiday in Danmark. Saw some awesome viking ships btw :)

But I was talking about hard sand (the one you got when the tide is low) i want to know how thin i can go. What would be the minimum thickness? So when im going thinner i need to increase the diameter. Is this to increase ' running' surface?

But a 4.8/4.0-8 wheel is considered as an good allrounder? And for the record, 4.8 is the wheel thickness and 4.0 the rim thickness and 8 is the diameter? God i feel like being a freshman on his first day :)

I noticed the different rims, does this matter or does this just depends on the manufacturer production methods/wishes?
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
22 Oct 2010 10:10am
The basic physics of wheels are...
large diameter = less rolling resistance,
small diameter = more rolling resistance
BUT large wheels need to be strong to withstand the side forces of land yachts which normally = more weight = more force to get rolling.

Over the years for mini class size yachts the "wheel barrow" size wheel 4 inch wide on an 8 inch Diameter rim have seemed to be the most reliable and practical.
[In Australia the best seems to be made by a company called "Fallshaw" wheels]
Yes some people have used bike wheels of various types but they have tended to have a limited lifespan.
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