Welcome Phil,
This is probably NOT the answer you want but here goes... If the laser mast is in good condition and the top section is straight, sell it on eBay, they are rare as...
With the money get a good set of wheels and then talk to the local sailboard guys to see if they have an old fibre glass or carbon fibre mast for the LLMini.

Your probably better off trying to find a fiber glass or carbon fibre mast as the flex makes the yacht a bit easier to sail and takes the pressure off the mast step.
Extending the mast step and a stiffer mast may cause problems.

Nikrum said...
Above all else in new build (For a Newby) Listen to Paul and Cisco these jokers have been at this game for years.

Don't take too much notice of what I say. I have only been at it for 5 years and am still new to the sport but have been known to blab on a bit.

Landyacht, aus 230, Hiko , Clemco, Gizmo and Kiwi are the real fonts of knowlege when it come to building and sailing landyachts.

If you search back in the forum you will find answers to just about any question as most things have been discussed, some 2 or 3 times over.

Phil,
On CF Masts and I would imagine for Glass ones;
You will no doubt have to shorten it to suit your LY and Sail which is OK if you are lucky enough to get a complete one. Use you Common Sense here. Do not be afraid to buy broken Masts, specially the Lower section. Just as long as the sections can be fitted together with plenty of overlap. The Mast I am using on Schrodinger's Cat is made up from a few pieces of broken mast, luckily I managed to get 3 or 4 complete top sections and a bunch of broken Bases. I built up a base to suit the Cat (Be very careful when handling this stuff as the Splinters can be very nasty) If required a longer piece can be slipped inside the mast base to stiffen/reinforce it. This depends Largely on the type/size of the LY you are going to build. I was lucky enough to Buy a near new Mast (Undamaged/Spare) and enough to make 2 others plus 2 Axle sets and some Left overs for $400. I would also suggest that you Sleeve the section that is inside the Mast step. I add a note here, I seem to think there is some rule or other if you are going to compete about CF and or Glass so check this out as well. Me I'm in this sport for the fun of it and not competition.

I do not know if there is anybody out there that Has used/Is using Carbon Fiber If so I would like them to get involved as my experience is fairly narrow and I tend to prefer Over Engineering in places of extreme Stress of which Both Mast Step and Mast Base are under.

It should be understood that Speed CF Masts are under extreme Compression stress, due to the method used to tension the sail. However the Mast is Pivoted at the base and only the Sailors weight counters the wind to keep it upright. Hence it is my strong belief that an inner sleeve of at least 750mm long should be run up inside the Mast base as well as the shorter outer Mast Step Sleeve these sleeves also protect the Mast against CRUSH Pressure. It is always best , in these cases, to err on the generous side than be a little mean and lose a valuable commodity and your precious labor. Think the whole thing through before going ahead with the build. Do not be afraid to contact me if you need a little help Hopefully there is someone out there that is using CF as well to help you.

Ron

PS, Where sleeveing is concerned I have used sections of CF Mast Split and forced down over the Base, once again Cutting CF is a dangerous process, in that you do not want to breath the DUST! use a good mask all cuts should be sanded lightly to remove splinters and possibly sealed with an Epoxy Resin to prevent more splinters. The dust can also make you Itch so a paper overall is an idea.

Paul, Is you having a shot at me?????

After All, I did request some back up or further input to my findings in the mater Either to Concur or repudiate!![}:)]
Ron

I sectioned a windsurfer mast that has heavy wall kevlar and sacrificed another lighter wall mast for the joiner inserts.

I doubled up by using cuts along the sacrificial mast and sanding them for precise fit and epoxy glueing them into the mast lower and mid sections.

The plug inserts are 500 mm long and are positioned midway at the join of the sections.

All being of equal taper it was just a matter of sanding material until the desired result is achieved.



The white mast is actually a fibre glass radio ariel mast, some of which was used as well, particularly for the top section extension with which I backed up the epoxy glue with 4 self tapping stainless screws due to it carrying the load of the downhaul.

The base section of the three piece mast has one of the alloy tubes in the pic inserted, spaced with pvc split pipe between the mast and the tube to eliminate slop and a hardwood plug 100 mm long in the bottom.

The alloy tube is secured in the base section of the mast with epoxy glue but more importantly by the s/s self tapping screws that also secure the split pvc pipe cushioning the mast base section against the top of the mast step.

In the following pic you will see a white mark on the back of the mast which denotes the top of the alloy reinforcing tube. You will also notice that the mark is just below the gooseneck which is only static "hauled down".



Believe me, this is an excellent "flexy" mast because I made sure it would be. But it is still a "flexy" mast and therefore a bit tame for an LLF Mini.

My first sail in an LLF Mini was with my chassis and seat with a sail made from fertiliser bags and a "stiffy" alloy mast both made by Paul Day.

It was WILD.

I steered using the slight slop in the steering head. Anything more was "can out material". Paul has admitted that he could not catch me with my blokart with which he won the first prize trophy in his weight division a couple of years ago at the blokart nationals at Yeppoon.

Paul gave me the sail, sold me "Nappy Rush" but took the mast home because he reckoned it was worth $300.

I have asked for the specs for that mast a couple of times but so far they have not been forthcoming.

Here are the specs for an alloy mast that do not appear to have the Paul Day trade mark on them.

If you really want to go technical when it comes to windsurfer masts, then spending half an hour at this place will blow your mind:

www.peterman.dk/start-windsurfing-samlet-gb-dk01.htm

I find the mast test results (with bend curve) especially useful when comparing different brands / models of mast.

cisco said...

Nikrum said...

Cisco,
This thread may sound a little defensive of my build,

Not at all Ron.

As a non class compliant class 5 sized yacht (ie not an alloy mast), I think it is red hot.

What I was saying in my last post is that I think flexy masts are great for absorbing gusts but a correctly designed and built alloy mast on an LLF Mini will give it a considerable step up in performance.

I will build one and make a sail for it one day. Just got a bit too much other stuff going on now.

the first alloy 3 piece i made for the LLM (specs are somewhere on this site) was too stiff for my weight, so i made a flexier one with more tip flex.( the one cisco used) I now have all my alloy mini masts to that pattern. Ankle Biter is running on a 1 peice glass mast with an early model 10% carbon mast inserted to 1.7m as a stiffener. this gives early flex , and stiffens when fully sheeted.
TP1 runs a 30% 55mm 2 piece windsurfer mast on his min, and it is STIFF, the mast has outlived 2 chassis's. he regularly slams that baby down as he refuses to sheet out till its toolate. it has 500mm of Douglas fir up the bottom,silasticed in , thats all. we avoid screws.

I think a 50% carbon standard diameter windsurfer mast would be stiff enough for a "social" class 5 but maybe stiff ally for serious racing

landyacht said...
the first alloy 3 piece i made for the LLM (specs are somewhere on this site) was too stiff for my weight, so i made a flexier one with more tip flex.( the one cisco used) I now have all my alloy mini masts to that pattern.

I was sure you had put it up on the site too but I couldn't find it going through the threads.

Via "Your Profile" and clicking on your gallery uploads I found it on about page 12.



"Nappy Rush" can now get her own mast.

As I recall the top section of that mast I used had a short (50-100 mm) stopper sleeve attached to the outside at it's lower end.

To make the top section flexier than the one above you must have gone to the next smaller diameter tube or a lighter walled tube (if that is available). Or maybe the top section is longer.

P.S. Thanks again Paul for the great info you have and continue to post on the site.

cisco said...

landyacht said...
the first alloy 3 piece i made for the LLM (specs are somewhere on this site) was too stiff for my weight, so i made a flexier one with more tip flex.( the one cisco used) I now have all my alloy mini masts to that pattern.

I was sure you had put it up on the site too but I couldn't find it going through the threads.

Via "Your Profile" and clicking on your gallery uploads I found it on about page 12.
that was my too stiff mast



"Nappy Rush" can now get her own mast.

As I recall the top section of that mast I used had a short (50-100 mm) stopper sleeve attached to the outside at it's lower end.

To make the top section flexier than the one above you must have gone to the next smaller diameter tube or a lighter walled tube (if that is available). Or maybe the top section is longer.

P.S. Thanks again Paul for the great info you have and continue to post on the site.

Nikrum said...


OK! Now here is a definite problem All things of major Importance such as Masts,
Chassis Plans FISLY Requirements etc really should be put into Labeled Folders and
Locked in order to the head of the Land Yacht Page.

Understand what you are saying Ron but if we did that, the fist page and probably
the second of the forum would be all locked stickies and the dynamic and real time
live feel of the forum could be lost.

When one has been on the forum for a while he/she (not too many of the latter in
the land sailing forum) gets to know that Seabreeze has the "Zen of Land Yachting" within and that one who
truly SEEKS knowlege shall be rewarded.

Also, having all knowlege at the front would deprive tricky dickies like Gizmo of the
enormous fun he has replying to a question with a link and the comment "Here is
the answer!"

Would probably give our modest moderator, hills, a headache too.

Ya don' wanna do that now do ya pilgrim?

Yeah. I'll go with "Ordered Chaos". When all is chaos I'll give the orders!!

My alter ego is Cap'n Sandbank. Bank not Bar.

Cisco was the "Robbing Hood" of the ol' west. Zorro on the other hand was a "Gay Blade".

Here is a pic of "Cisco".

Gizmo said...

cisco said...
Also, having all knowledge at the front would deprive tricky dickies like Gizmo of the
enormous fun he has replying to a question with a link and the comment "Here is
the answer!"

BUT like ALL things in life there is always more than just one answer.... progress is a wonderful thing.

Questions then can become Theorum, Answers Theory and Creation there off becomes the Reality of both. Therefore Occum's Razor comes into Play the "Simpler method is generally true = KISS Principle.

Cisco.
au contraire

The Cisco Kid refers to a character found in numerous film, radio, television and comic book series based on the fictional Western character created by O. Henry in his 1907 short story "The Caballero's Way", published in the collection Heart of the West. In movies and television, the Kid was depicted as a heroic Mexican caballero, even though he was originally a cruel outlaw.

WIKIPEDIA en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cisco_Kid

Who the Hell was Cap'n Sandbank anyway

Why has Cisco become Stranded Ashore?
Ron

On the mast side of things...how much compression IS there actually do you think? Has anyone thought/able to actually measure it? Not entirely sure how one would but it might be easy(?) enough with a set of bathroom scales. Then we could all get some sleep.
Me too, as I am wondering why the LLM main tube is built so 'strong'. Yes, it doesn't fail but is it overkill? Not sure but years of sailing suggests it works well enough.
My background is in 0.9mm WT chromolly steel round tube and I know it can handle loads over 200 Kg in a 45mm section. Proven it in other applications. Some triangulation underneath the tube would do wonders too.
Then the all up weight could come down a bit.
Just my two cents.

landyacht said...

the other reson we avoid lots of sticky.s is that newbies and Experts start to waffle and deviate, and of course they could become wrong.
Ps cisco,I made it less stiff

I think you misread me Paul, I was suggesting Locked Stickies on Plans, Masts Tried and Proven Wheel Types Only. Not on Techtalk, unless proven to be a fact and Occum's Razor has been applied. I also believe that Safety Issues should be Loaded and Locked only to be added to or altered by WEB Master. Anyway the thought didn't get any approval so it Dies here.
Ron