One problem can be the longer the lite loops the more the lines twist so when you finally release the chicken loop the lines are so twisted together the kite won't flag . So if your kite starts looping release as soon as possible .

cbulota said...
I agree with stuntnaz's comment, the sooner you release, the better.

Here are some additional thoughts.
As an instructor, during lessons I release safety systems multiple times every day and I have done that on a large number of different kites, brands, types of safety systems, etc. The conclusion that I draw so far is that the vast majority of dual front line safety systems out there are not entirely safe, meaning that sometimes they flag the kite out when the safety system is activated, sometimes not. So reading your story doesn't surprise me at all as I've seen your situation happen many times on dual front lines safety systems. In my opinion this wouldn't happen as often if ever on a single front line safety system (whether a 5th line or a single front line safety on a 4-line bar). The advantage of a single front line safety system is obvious.

I would never recommend to connect your leash to one of your back lines as you mentioned, as this will cause the kite to spin relentlessly when the safety system is activated. This used to be a older type of ''safety'' system that is no longer existing on the market, because it's dangerous.

That being said, there is a ''workaround'' on dual front line safety system that don't fully depower the kite when the safety system is activated:

-Pull yourself up the center lines as quickly as you can until you can grab only one of the two center lines. Grab either of those two lines and start pulling hard in order to create slack in the other 3 lines and cause the kite to flag out. Continue pulling yourself up that line until you get to the kite. Then you can either self-rescue if in deep water or self-land if back on the land or shallow water. I know this sounds dangerous but if your safety system fails to deliver this can be an efficient option that will save you and your gear. The bottom line is as long as you have tension on only one center line and the other 3 lines are slack, the kite cannot power up and will flag out. It's either that option, or dump your gear, or as you said, get a kite with a safety system that's actually working.

Thanks for sharing your story

The only dual front line safety that works 99% of the time that I've used and seen (and thats most kites on the market) is the Cabrinha IDS System.
Get a bar and lines that flags to one single front line.
Dont ever grab one of the flying lines on a powered and out of control kite with your bare hands, if you do you will most likely lose skin or fingers.

I've got a redline bar on my 2010 Waroo and have experienced a similar situation, luckily I wasn't pulled up onto the beach, I managed to wrestle the kite down with the help of the small shore break.

I think the main issue here is that a line wrapped around the wingtip creates an asymmetry in the line tensions and pretty much sets the kite up in a loop configuration, regardless of the quick release being pulled.

I'm guessing that your line got hooked on the wing tip when you crashed the kite, this can happen when you travel towards the kite as you stack, letting the lines slacken and allowing the kite to roll on itself a bit.
Relaunching in light winds and inadvertently choking the kite, can also see the kite rolling on itself, creating the same situation.

I found that as I have progressed and become more kite 'aware aware', I am able to control the kite to a certain extent when I do stack it, if only to keep an adequate amount of tension in the lines.
My main goal when stacking it is to try and keep an eye on the kite as I go down and pull on the opposite side of the bar to which the kite is flying, to try and buy myself some time to get my head above water and either relaunch having kept tension in the lines, or keep the kite flying.

Having said all that, I find that when I have needed to use the quick release and there are no lines looped over wingtips, the kite settles down on the water and becomes very manageable.

Thanks for all the great feedback, it's much appreciated.

Stuntnaz: Thanks for this tip, what you say makes sense and retrospect I should have done exactly that, pulled the safety as soon as it did its uncontrolled first loop. Instead of standing there and going..woohaa my kite is looping, its ok, no its not, its ok, no its not..

Cbulota: On my kite the centre lines stay together for a couple of meters before they attach to a ring and split. I understand your suggestion but I think it would be difficult for me to pull myself along the safety line to get to a single front line to pull it, especially if it was under stress. If I was in the water this might be possible but on the beach I don't think I could.

Best have released a new Red line bar that now has a mini 5th line system, so as I understand it, it now releases to a single front line. Based on the feedback in the above posts this is a lot safer. My concern with this is that coincidently on the same day I experienced uncontrolled kite looping, a friend of mine also with a Best kite snapped one of his front line bridles. It didn't snap at the pulley, it snapped where the line passes through a metal ring. Inspecting the other front line bridle on his kite, the thick line looked a little flat and fury but not to the point I would of thought it needed replacing. This could be our inexperience on reading line wear but I have also inspected my other kites, one of which has only been used a couple of times and it shows similar wear but given its lack of use I have to assume that the line is still good and this is just superficial.

So to drag this issue out further. If I was to continue using these Best kites and get the new Bar and lines which now provides a single front line safety system. If the bridle was to snap on the line used for the front line safety, then this would effectively mean you no longer had a safety at all and if pulled there would be nothing connected to the kite.

If I hadn't witnessed the bridle line snapping first-hand I probably wouldn't have been too concerned as I would just say that the rider needed to inspect their bridle lines carefully. But after looking at the wear, if it's that hard to tell when a bridle line needs replacing I will basically have to replace all the lines at the start of every season to be sure, which is expensive and not that comforting.

I realize that with a true 5th line system (North Rebel, correct me if I'm wrong..), the 5th line could also break but as the kite doesn't depend on this line to fly the kite you should be able to land it with assistance in the event this happens. It also doesn't have any bridles so this is one other less thing to go wrong…

I'd also be very interested to hear of problems with the North Rebel's 5th line, if anyone has firsthand experience.

cbulota said...

With a 5th line you may rarely get the 5th line wrapping around the kite when the kite inverts. Happened to me once in 2 years+ of kiting. Still even with the 5th line wrapped around the kite you'd be able to fully depower and recover it safely.

Not true, 5th line is not the answer some brands and people have tried to promote, otherwise all brands would be using it, wouldn't they?
I agree in the hands of an experienced flat water kiter it is a system that works quite well - most of the time.
In the waves, forget it, as almost all serious wave riders and brands have.

For beginners, I've seen dozens and dozens of incidents over the years, where due to lack of skill, maintenance and inexperience, the rider crashes, rides towards the kite, then the kite rolls though and the fifth then wraps the kite and it starts death looping, or will not relaunch, or the fifth line breaks, etc.

Makes no difference if the 5th line is loaded or not. Loaded 5th line is now being used to give those kite designs more wind range and trim ability, similar to what a bridle does (loaded 5th is a type of bridle).

cbulota said...

I guess you're lucky to have the IDS system flag out 99% of the time for you because I can't say I've experienced or seen similar results. Just like they mention in their own video: ''we recommend walking towards the kite to achieve full depower'' which means it doesn't systematically flag out when the safety is released, just like it happens in the video....now what if you are in deep water and the kite doesn't flag out ? Are you supposed to ''take a few steps forward'' or maybe swim faster than the wind to achieve flagging out and be able to retrieve your kite safely? Seriously if I grabbed a couple of different IDS kites from the last 3 years or so and pull the safety system in various winds conditions they wouldn't flag out completely half the time.

Ok, I've made some comments that disagree or contradict some advice you have been giving beginners in this section of the forum. I do not know you and none of my comments are directed towards you personally.

The Cabrinha video above is from 2009, its now late 2012 and there have been 3 later versions of the IDS system, each one has seen improvements and refinements to the system, but the video is still relevant and provides some excellent information.
The section of the video about self landing assumes you are on land as shown in the video, so you can walk towards the kite.

In the water the kite will of course have some residual drag, simply because there is a large kite hanging off the end of the 2 front lines, but due to the way the bridle is constructed the kite cannot actually power up and a rider can either swim up/pull up the centre lines and achieve the same 100% depower and then self rescue.
Sometimes I have seen issues with the IDS, when its deployed, but its very rare and in most cases it was deployed unnecessarily, by beginners who have panicked when the lines are all slack.
Like I said there are a range of things that can and do go wrong with 5th line systems too, and that I've frequently seen especially when in the hands of beginners.

cbulota said...

I would never recommend to connect your leash to one of your back lines as you mentioned, as this will cause the kite to spin relentlessly when the safety system is activated. This used to be a older type of ''safety'' system that is no longer existing on the market, because it's dangerous.

Sorry to Hijack the thread, though looks as though the OP has been resolved.

In the 4 line setup below, would it better to always connect to point D rather than point A then? contrary to what the manual says? (kite is older, 09)



Cheers

I agree with cbulota, point A is the last place I would use.

My first kite was a 2003 Cabrinha CO2, back then the leash attached a little further up the line to A (left hand steering line about 1m up).
When the safety was "activated", the kite always started looping (not too much power) and the other 3 lines shot up towards the kite.
Results were always:
1) no chance of relaunch (self rescue the only option)
2) Birds nest of lines that took at least an hour to untangle
3) A very unhealthy RELUCTANCE to deploy the safety due to the above.

Because of the time it took to untangle lines (session ending in most circumstances) the instinct was always to "hang on" at all cost and try recover, resulting in most beginners flying 40 plus meters through the air out of control at least once every session.

It took a few sessions for me to unlearn this instinct but after 6 years away from kiting the depower and safety system are mind blowing. Well done to the R&D guys.