finding a decent kite shootout/review

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sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
26 Apr 2012 8:43pm
Hi just wondering if anyone knows a site that does a decent kite review. By review I mean a shootout or test by a variety of riders all testing the current crop of kites in the same category. Like a shootout between the top 2012 delta's, or C kites etc.

I can't seem to find anything decent outside brand propaganda. You buy a motorbike bike mag and they all have shootouts between the top bikes in each category, on same day, under same conditions. This is very informative in choosing what to go for. Can't find this for kites.
KSSALTONA
KSSALTONA
VIC
207 posts
VIC, 207 posts
26 Apr 2012 8:48pm
It sounds like a great idea.
Im not sure many of the brands would like it though and they keep the mags going. Closest i have seen is the KW reviews.
George from Kite Mag should do it!!
Aseela
Aseela
WA
168 posts
WA, 168 posts
26 Apr 2012 6:48pm
The UK kitesurf mag usually does a good comparison of kite types under test conditions. Get it at the newsagent!
sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
26 Apr 2012 8:56pm
Yeah it's quite frustrating. You decide on the kite style you're going for but there's a whackload of kites on offer in that category. At present all the reviews skirt the edges and no one seems game enough to stand up and say 'right, let's get all the current medium aspect bow kites together, get a bunch of recognized riders on the same beach, same day, same conditions and do a shoot out'.

If there's nothing on the net like this is there a popular kiteboard mag that does it - properly?
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
26 Apr 2012 7:59pm
Mags belong to the past.

Mags are officially history.

Mags are freaking junkmail brochures.

lol.
Saffer
Saffer
VIC
4501 posts
VIC, 4501 posts
26 Apr 2012 10:27pm
Its great in theory but never works in practicality. There are too many variables and you really need to spend a fair amount of weeks on a kite to work out things like durability.

The reviews I've seen have always been advertorials or if they are full reviews, the guys don't bother to understand the kites properly before using them so they complain about issues that don't exist and praise things on the kite that are actually issues.
sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
26 Apr 2012 11:13pm
Wouldn't say mags belong to the past waveslave otherwise there'd be nothing on the shelf at local newsagent.

Saffer, how can there be too many variables? Same day, same beach, each rider has an hour on each kite. How can that be flawed? You could say the same for sport bike reviews. 'oh, but there was a bit of rain when I rode that bike and you had just sun.' Bull****.

Anyway I'm not here to argue the merits of my point but a simple question of whether kiteboarding had matured enough to produce this level of review. It seems not. It should have after 10 years or so in the arena. So I guess I'll just have to keep trolling through endless brand blurbs, look at which color is the prettiest, and cop what advice diehard kite owners on the beach dish from their own kite of love because outside that it seems there's nothing objective to inform me.
cauncy
cauncy
WA
8407 posts
WA, 8407 posts
26 Apr 2012 9:27pm
kiteworld has good unbiased reviews , if you get online you can track the brand and read the review , they usually test the kites and boards at the same venue and wind conditions
Saffer
Saffer
VIC
4501 posts
VIC, 4501 posts
26 Apr 2012 11:48pm
sweetriffs said...

Wouldn't say mags belong to the past waveslave otherwise there'd be nothing on the shelf at local newsagent.

Saffer, how can there be too many variables? Same day, same beach, each rider has an hour on each kite. How can that be flawed? You could say the same for sport bike reviews. 'oh, but there was a bit of rain when I rode that bike and you had just sun.' Bull****.



Simple, the wind can vary on any given day. I've been out at a kitespot where the first hour was clean wind and the next two were gusty.

Your choice of kite is impacted by what you ride now. If you are used to a fast kite, anything slower will seem sluggish, if you're used to a slow kite, anything faster will seem twitchy.

Then, the consideration of build and construction. Kite seems great, but seam fails after 2 months. Picked up in a one hour kite test? Nope. Cabrinha had a bad year where leading edges failed, the kite was rated by many mags as a great one because they didn't pick it up during tests.

Next example, familiarity of equipment. If you're used to cabrinha, the bar seems natural. If you're used to a cleat, using a cleat is easy, if you're not, its terrible. As one example, last test I saw, they complained about the Rebel depower rope being too far away for short armed people. Most people who have the kite know you can adjust it the distance of the depower rope from the rider in about 20 seconds. They marked it as a negative and marked down the kite's points. 5 riders didn't pick that up?? Example of how you need to get to know a kite before making comments which often can't be picked up in an hour. Other kites they also did the same thing, didn't pick up simple things on the kite and marked them as negative when in reality they didn't know the equipment.
doonas_r_cool
doonas_r_cool
132 posts
132 posts
26 Apr 2012 10:07pm
Great reply Saffer...

I'd say go and demo as many kites as you can, try to test them all in the same spot to keep at least one things constant in your test's.

Most shop guys will give it to you straight up anyhow, listen to them they know what they are talking about, then go try the kites, and come back and tell us!!!
TurtleHunter
TurtleHunter
WA
1675 posts
WA, 1675 posts
26 Apr 2012 11:22pm
we tried a shoot out up here with as many kites as possible over a week. Everyone seemed to learn a lot about what they liked but at the end everyone had different preferred kites and almost everyone changed their mind about what kites they liked throughout the week. In the end there were no definite conclusions. All you can do is try different kites yourself and find what feels natural then stick with it.
One thing though was it was a fun week.
sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
27 Apr 2012 9:01am
I Know what you're saying Saffer but you could say that for shootouts/reviews of almost any product. It is precisely those points you make that ARE what a shootout is all about. Remember I'm talking about kites in the same class, not c kites versus high aspect bow's so any huge differences in speed or power or turning would be very much of interest to readers. The point is a shootout is a collection of opinions from experienced riders. Sure it's not perfect but it has proved to be an excellent medium in sport bike and other 'high tech' sports to lay down the differences - back to back.

Yeah there's potential for gusty or different conditions but I can't see why the location can't be chosen in a mostly steady and predictable place.

Same with durability you say. So what, you say we can't test because we don't know how long a kite will last? Mate we can look at build quality. You may as well say forget testing sportbikes back to back because we don't know how long a ducati will last compared to a GSXR. Silly.

I'm sure a hell of a lot of people will read carefully a kite shootout.. including you guys...
Saffer
Saffer
VIC
4501 posts
VIC, 4501 posts
27 Apr 2012 10:10am
sweetriffs said...

I Know what you're saying Saffer but you could say that for shootouts/reviews of almost any product. It is precisely those points you make that ARE what a shootout is all about. Remember I'm talking about kites in the same class, not c kites versus high aspect bow's so any huge differences in speed or power or turning would be very much of interest to readers. The point is a shootout is a collection of opinions from experienced riders. Sure it's not perfect but it has proved to be an excellent medium in sport bike and other 'high tech' sports to lay down the differences - back to back.

Yeah there's potential for gusty or different conditions but I can't see why the location can't be chosen in a mostly steady and predictable place.

Same with durability you say. So what, you say we can't test because we don't know how long a kite will last? Mate we can look at build quality. You may as well say forget testing sportbikes back to back because we don't know how long a ducati will last compared to a GSXR. Silly.

I'm sure a hell of a lot of people will read carefully a kite shootout.. including you guys...


I tend to disagree. The conditions for a motorbike would be far less variable. The wind can vary over a 10 minute period, never mind half a day when a test would need to be conducted. Then how do you test low end and top end without heading out on multiple days. Most tests are conducted on one day using one size of the kite.

If you really want a kite test to be subjective, you really need a month of a wide variety of conditions so you can test low end, top end and multiple sizes of each kite. The reason I say this is I've tested plenty of kites where one particular size is a dream size and some of the others are terrible. Then there are issues of varying kite sizes (what they say and what they are is different) along with different manufacturers having different sizes. I.e. one manufacturer has 7/9/12/14 and another has 7,9,11,13
sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
27 Apr 2012 10:10am
Hey turtlehunter that sounds really interesting. Was it formal or just a bunch of mates swapping kites? Maybe you could expand on your experience i'm sure people here would be interested in the outcomes even if it is just opinion/experience. You say most people changed their opinions of what kites were better, or they liked. Was that in relation to classes of kites or brands within a class?

I'm also quite interested in kite wind range. There's big debate out there about what kites can cover the widest wind range. But there's also a lot of contradiction too.
sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
27 Apr 2012 10:53am
Imagine:

September 2012 - 4 of the worlds best freestyle kiteboarders get together on Kaula beach Hawaii to test the latest crop of medium aspect bow kites back to back and give their impressions. One perfect day, 4 killer riders and 8 of the hottest kite brands. Cabrinha, Naish, Ozone, Slingshot, Best, Crazyfly, North, Airush.

Which kite will take the title for 2012 kite of the year?

No Saffer you are right. This would be a totally pointless, boring excercise that would be ignored by the entire kiteboard fraternity.

Saffer
Saffer
VIC
4501 posts
VIC, 4501 posts
27 Apr 2012 11:54am
sweetriffs said...

Imagine:

September 2012 - 4 of the worlds best freestyle kiteboarders get together on Kaula beach Hawaii to test the latest crop of medium aspect bow kites back to back and give their impressions. One perfect day, 4 killer riders and 8 of the hottest kite brands. Cabrinha, Naish, Ozone, Slingshot, Best, Crazyfly, North, Airush.

Which kite will take the title for 2012 kite of the year?

No Saffer you are right. This would be a totally pointless, boring excercise that would be ignored by the entire kiteboard fraternity.




Being fun and being accurate are two different things. Thats why they call them demo days and not review days. I'd also be inclined to make it more than 4 riders. 10 riders would be a better spread with each rider currently riding a different brand to reduce impact of brand bias because they ride a particular brand and are used to it. For example I'm pretty sure having 4 out of the 10 riders currently on slingshot is likely to result in a scorecard in favour of the slingshot kites.

You'd also need to make sure your 10 riders have no affiliations with shops that are likely to bias their decision. (how many shop team riders are going to be prepared to admit that a brand their shop doesn't sell is better than a brand their shop does?)

The other thing I'd do is make each guy score after riding the kite and then recheck after having tried every kite. I.e. they may mark something very high on a kite but after having tested all the other kites they may find its not as good as they previously thought it was because there are better options out there. (how many guys rate a kite 10/10 because they've come from a previous year's kite so anything seems better and is likely to score high)

P.s. your whole approach to this makes me think that you're actually using this post to try get some manufacturers to provide kites for a review. If thats the case, just tell them what you're doing and ask them, you don't need the kitesurfing community's permission.
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
27 Apr 2012 10:05am
sweetriffs said...

Wouldn't say mags belong to the past waveslave otherwise there'd be nothing on the shelf at local newsagent.


I'm not referring to Penthouse and the like. ^^^
I'm talking about kitesurfing magazines only, the two Australian kiting mags to be precise.
Both are junkmail.
In two years they won't exist.
Seabreeze is currently the only real kitesurfing 'mag' in Oz.
TurtleHunter
TurtleHunter
WA
1675 posts
WA, 1675 posts
27 Apr 2012 10:45am
sweetriffs said...

Hey turtlehunter that sounds really interesting. Was it formal or just a bunch of mates swapping kites? Maybe you could expand on your experience i'm sure people here would be interested in the outcomes even if it is just opinion/experience. You say most people changed their opinions of what kites were better, or they liked. Was that in relation to classes of kites or brands within a class?

I'm also quite interested in kite wind range. There's big debate out there about what kites can cover the widest wind range. But there's also a lot of contradiction too.


It was a formal demo week (Exmouth Expo) with 40 + participants. Probably exactly what your after but the logistics was a killer and the cost to make the time spent worth while was pretty high too. No shop riders and a pretty broad spread of riders gave an unbiased view but many had a particular kite they wanted to try from the start and didn't spend enough time on all the others.
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
27 Apr 2012 11:13am
sweetriffs said...

Imagine:

September 2012 - 4 of the worlds best freestyle kiteboarders get together on Kaula beach Hawaii to test the latest crop of medium aspect bow kites back to back and give their impressions. One perfect day, 4 killer riders and 8 of the hottest kite brands. Cabrinha, Naish, Ozone, Slingshot, Best, Crazyfly, North, Airush.

Which kite will take the title for 2012 kite of the year?

No Saffer you are right. This would be a totally pointless, boring excercise that would be ignored by the entire kiteboard fraternity.




ASL do a board reveiw every year and the its the same with boards, they just have two or three people to give their impressionson how they go. They could do that with kites I would think?
Puetz
Puetz
NT
2186 posts
NT, 2186 posts
27 Apr 2012 12:52pm
... there is another factor alot of people forget in testing kites and thats prejudice and long term effects.

example: I had Naish kites (ARX, X2) for a few years but all the valves came off so I hated them saying I'd never own Naish again. Then I borrowed one, Helix and didn't like it for no particular reason but over a week it grew on me, well sort of. In the end it didn't have the zing I wanted so it went off my list of favourites. Problem now is when I see Naish kites I immediately think of a polite stable kite without the punch I want so I have my prejudice against them.

example 2: I got a Core XR, loved it initially but after a few weeks I started to dis-like it and actually went to another kite feeling not sure why I didn't like it, then one day I pulled it out again and loved it all over again and did so for the next year til I got rolled in surf and split the leading edge. So it was a love, hate then love again story.

How do you know if its a good kite or like me change opinions given time, through a short test or over time?. Mind you, if a feature you love is really great, you can over look the small imperfections but the next person feels that small fault is huge.

Some times you don't know what you want til you have it and then you can't live without it!

cheers,

Robbie
sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
27 Apr 2012 2:22pm
Yeah Saffer I agree. Maybe less kites and more riders. Also not riders aligned to any brand. The thing would be to make sure each kite is out on the water at the same time. So you get say 6 riders and six different kites, all out on the water and then riders swap kites around every hour or so. That way each group of riders is comparing the kites in exactly the same conditions. If it picks up later then it doesn't matter coz all the kites are out there battling the same weather each time.

There shouldn't be too much difference in kite/bar setup either because we are comparing the same kite category and honestly, there's not too much difference as far as I can see. At least any decent rider should be able to accommodate this pretty easily. If we're talking same category then we should really be talking same size too - give or take a meter at most. That's doable.

Look no one is suggesting it will be flawless but you got to admit the exercise would be far more honest and informative than the current propaganda or even single kite reviews. At present every brand claims to be the BEST. The worlds best C Kite. Worlds Best hybrid. There's no independent cross industry test to say let's PROVE IT.

Kiteboard champions is like Moto GP. You can't compare brands really because the winners are the companies with the best riders and the most cash. This does not necessarily translate to the real world.


allano
allano
WA
188 posts
WA, 188 posts
27 Apr 2012 12:48pm
I Like the SBC reviews

http://www.sbckiteboard.com/2012-kite-reviews

They try and bunch them into deferent categories
ei: All terrain, Freestyle SLE, head to head in the surf, Free style wake.....they even did a beginner shootout...

and give 2 or 3 of the stand outs in a particular style for example....
the best kites if you want to boost are ...etc etc
the best for depower are....

They cant test all kites available but its an interesting read
sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
27 Apr 2012 3:19pm
Thanks Allano. This is the closest I've found to what I was after - head to head kite tests.
Chris_M
Chris_M
2132 posts
2132 posts
27 Apr 2012 4:10pm
Maybe this will clear up any questions



sweetriffs
sweetriffs
QLD
28 posts
QLD, 28 posts
27 Apr 2012 9:16pm
Erm, that definitely clears up any questions, Chris.
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