hey ho bro's.

The creative juices are about to flow. So its time to build another mutant.

This one will be more big wave focused.

Hit me with your ideas.

Hey Plummet, off the subject but heading to queenstown NZ in July, being the NZ man, do you think it's worth pursuing a day snow kiting, and is queenstown good for the snowkiting?
Any info would be great mate
Cheers

I've been experimenting with my Underground Firebird mutant. It keeps going strong, despite half a dozen years of hard riding. I lost a fin from it that I've not been able to replace and I'm currently experimenting with alternative fin setups and have been pleasantly surprised at the results.

Almost out of desperation, I took an FCS fin, cut the tabs off, carefully drilled three holes into the fin and then used three triangle head phillips stainless screws on the top of the board through washers and lo and behold, it worked.

I've had it out for about half a dozen sessions now, and tried my best to see if I could knock the fin off but to no avail, it works great and actually noticeably better than the original fin -- probably because the original fin was fatter and had a symmetrical foil on it rather that as you'd expect on a surfboard. This one is also somewhat unusual

The fin manufacturer has since shipped some additional fins to me to try which should be arriving any day now.

My suggestion would be:

-- Directional with asymmetrical pad locations with rear foot position further toward the tail than a standard twintip

-- Pronounced double-concave bottom

-- Wood core with good flex

-- [VERY important] Make the front foot significantly ducked forward to about 45 degrees! [I don't know how anyone can ride a mutant with the front foot pad square!]

-- Forget front fins [if you can't ride toe-side you shouldn't be riding a mutant]

-- Make it able to accept surfboard fins or bolt on some like I did. It makes a big difference in how the board rides.

-- Put the fins on square -- no need for toe-in or splay. It will turn easily enough with the power of the kite.

-- Make it a twin-fin with side aux fins.

-- Make the side axillary fins asymmetrical as well and keep them as thin as possible to reduce drag.

I'll post some photos later and also put up a link to the fins I've been using. They are a bit different than the fins most surfers use with some significant differences that make them work better at speed.

theres a whole world of board builders out there, you might want to check out some of theses boards and ideas www.boardbuilders.co/p/forum.html

HOLY CRAP!!

Wot's going on with that grass Mr Plummet?

Not as lush as I have seen it in the past..........

Sorry i'm letting the team down with my not lush enough grass! I think kit33r is out lushing me!!!!...

Yeah man one of the locals has one of those axis boards. I've looked at the tucked rails. Very nice.

Im not sure I can be arsed engineering a press with tucked rails for one board. It will be quite a challenge to do that.

Plummet said..

Sorry i'm letting the team down with my not lush enough grass! I think kit33r is out lushing me!!!!...

Yeah man one of the locals has one of those axis boards. I've looked at the tucked rails. Very nice.

Im not sure I can be arsed engineering a press with tucked rails for one board. It will be quite a challenge to do that.

You could do what Nobile did with the Infinity Wave and stick a deck pad onto the wood base to create the tucked rail. Just use a hard enough material to last well and be easy to sand. The original Infinity had smaller pads along the rails.

http://www.kiteworldmag.com/news/luengo-joins-nobile/

www.kites.ru/kajtovy-j-serfbord-nobile-infinity-6-1-2012-otchet-o-testah/

KIT33R said..

^^ That Nobile Infinity looks good. Nice rails from what I can see in the photo. Axis make a similar board with thin deck and raised rails..

http://axiskiteboarding.com/?page_id=53

The New Wave on the surf page.

The Axis Wave seems to be identical to the 148 by 43 Underground SRF at 1:45 in this video. Same fins as well.

Yeah that's the other way to do it. I'm thinking a wrapped rail. Press the board first. then install a foam core rail and wrap glass/carbon around it.

Dave. I'm not on a surfboard for a variety of reasons. My primary focus is boosting off waves then riding them back in. TT style is better for that.

But I'm also enjoying the challenge of making something that surfs a wave well but also goes backwards.

Its an interesting challenge.

PS Axis is essentially Underground reborn into a new company.

Maxiy said..

A bit off topic here, But what kind of riding advantages does a mutant board have over a TT???

I have been reading about various people making mutant boards, and looking at your board Plummet you have got my creative juices running hahaha, wouldn't mind trying my hand at making one.

Mutants do everything a TT does but are much better than a TT in small surf. They carve turns much better due to softer rails midship and big (3) fins at the back end. Mutants are very easy to ride toeside especially if you have a sliding hook to get the kite pulling from your hip rather than from the centre using a Dyna Bar or J bar set up. I have replaced the bar with a length of rope and a shackle.

They can be ridden both ways just like a TT. They are generally longer than most TTs and footstraps are set 60:40 to the rear instead of 50:50.

Maxiy said..

do they tend to have a significant light wind advantage over a TT???

Being a bit bigger than most TTs - the Axis Wave is 148 x 43 gets planing early. I think the Shinn Wave (146cm) , which has a wider tail planes earlier in lighten wind. It also has less rocker. At the other end of the scale, I had the Axis out in 25 - 30 knots and it's still very comfortable even when I was overpowered on my 8m Reo.

cauncy said..

terminal said..

KIT33R said..

^^ That Nobile Infinity looks good. Nice rails from what I can see in the photo. Axis make a similar board with thin deck and raised rails..

http://axiskiteboarding.com/?page_id=53

The New Wave on the surf page.

The Axis Wave seems to be identical to the 148 by 43 Underground SRF at 1:45 in this video. Same fins as well.

underground is now axis, so id say same or similar, we rode the srf for a while here, it didn't agree with us, in our conditions itd give your knees a lot of greif after a good run

I rode the 140cm srf last year in light conditions and didn't like it. I didn't have access to a 148 Underground srf to compare. The 148 Axis is better than the 140 srf in my opinion. And yes, Underground is now Axis.

^

The Shinn was pretty good in light winds since it is wide with very little rocker throughout, flat bottom and NO tail rocker. The tail is flexible and bends under load in turns. It was a bugger to ride tail first in chop, something I'm not missing.

Why do people have fins on the front of mutants. To ride backwards. I ride backwardd out through the surf and booost tt style. Then ride the wave back in surf style.

Robbo2099 said..

KIT33R said..

I've finally put my Shinn Wave out to pasture. The new Axis Twin Wave is a gem.
Full length double concaves and ample rocker make it easy in choppy conditions both ways. Tucked surfboard style rails making carving turns flow without biting too deep and catching. Highly recommend this template.

Well that design does look interesting and different from the previous generation Underground Firebird mutant.

Some significant design differences I notice:

-- Three fins on the tail instead of two
-- No auxiliary side fins
-- Shorter back fins
-- more concave in the channels. (or at least it appears that way)

Couple of questions for you:

1. I rode my Firebird without the side fins once and it just didn't work. Sliding out, couldn't go upwind very well -- especially toe side. How does this one compare without the side fins and the extra centre fin?

2. The front foot pad appears square to the board (90 degrees) How can you ride it without pointing your front foot forward? To me, it would be like trying to ride a surfboard with both feet pointing directly at the opposite rail. Horrible. Or you have to contort your foot in the footstrap to a point where it's terribly uncomfortable.

When I first got the Firebird, it too had square pads and it felt awful. I rang Adrian at Underground, he sent me a handful of plugs, I drilled new holes and epoxied the new plugs in to duck the front pad to almost 45 degrees. Made a HUGE difference. The board was SO much more rideable and enjoyable. Why doesn't everyone who rides a mutant want their board to be configured like this?

3. Why do people who buy mutants want fins on the front? Do you really ride the board backwards? Why?Isn't half the reason you want a mutant is so you can ride it toe-side the other direction? I removed the front fins on my Firebird straight away. All they did was get in the way and catch the chop every now and again.

4. The back footstrap seems quite far forward to me. On the Firebird, the CENTRE of the back footstrap is 34cm from the tail -- curious how far this one is. Are there additional anchor points to move the back strap further toward the tail?

Cheers,

Rob

Hi Rob
1. Up wind performance is better than adequate. Toeside up wind, not as good as my Shinn Wave but this is probably due to the soft rail midship.
2. You are right, the insert holes follow the centreline of the board. I ride with my straps pretty loose so I can move my feet around. The straps I have come with a 3 holed plate. I've currently got it set up in the centre one. I may change then so I can point my front foot a bit more but the option is limited. I can't answer the last part of your question, only time and evolution will tell.
3. I ride mine backwards quite often. It feels more like a TT that way and hikes up wind when needed. It's easy to jump to Toeside when required.
4. I have the back foot strap as far back as allowable. I'd like to be able to move it further back but this is not an option. Ask Adrian why, I'm sure there is a reason. It might make the board uncomfortable to ride the other way. If you'll notice in the image of my board I am using standard surfboard footbpads with a kick at the back. I'm playing around using this spot behind the strap for my back foot in the surf. The fins are set a long way back too and almost in parallel. Not your standard tri-fin configuration. My centre back fin is the same size as the side fins (70mm). The board does come with an 80mm centre fin and 70mm side fins. I'll put an 80mm in and see how it goes.

^
An interesting "blast from the past" with a twist, Robo. I will try ducking the front foot straps as you have done to see how the Axis goes. How do you ride the Underground backwards with those huge fins? If you come back to Sydney please look me up for a ride on the Axis and I'd love to try your monster!

I might attack my old Shinn Wave with some mods.