using violence to discipline gives kids a message that violence is ok.
there are many other ways to teach kids about consequences of dissobedience. My phylosophy (as a parent) is teach with understanding, patience, example and lot of love. However when they are small, sometimes all of the above and reasoning no longer works. You have to be extremely consistent. You have to teach them respect, coz if you don't they'll walk all over you. I see parents who are so clueless and i'm totally gobsmacked. They enter endless arguments with their kids, and kids simply own them. Or they just in frustration yell out from a far "stop doing that etc..." and the kids ignores, and then they yell out few more times, and then just give up... In reality it's so simple - a proven formula - works every time:
- kid is missbehaving
- stop what you are doing, collect your self and dedicate next minute to your kid
- look at them in calm very serious manner and give them an instruction to follow
- if they ignore (which in the beginning they usually do), repeat the above 2 more times outlining what the consequence will be
- give them last warning.
- execute the punishment (not refering to violence here) - but not in a sadistic way, but as a mean for them to understand it's a consequence for their missbehaviour.
- do all this consistantly several times, and the kids will learn that you don't muck around and they have to respect. You are then set for life...

Of course it's also very wrong to be unreasonable, and expect kids to behave like adults... For example, i often hear about shopping centre tantrums with small children. Here is another tactic that always worked for me:
- Distract the kid, then give them an alternative substitute option in turn for them to stop crying - that way they won't feel like they are at complete loss.

I was belted every now and then when i was a kid. I'm not sure if it was right or wrong, but i don't hold a grudge at all coz i know that parents loved me. However, i also think that newer generations that grow up in "no one is allowed to touch you" society, are very selfish and a lot less respectful generations - which can't be good for the future of any society. Not a fan of violence, but also don't agree with western society approach where govrnment wants to take over from parents to educate the kids... where you have less and less rights to educate your kids...

It's not utopia, it's simple and it works for me. Again i don't have teenegers yet so can't comment on that. I don't advocate chit chat... nor long reasoning debates... instead clear instruction followed by punishment (and consistently). But they have to understand what's going on. You can't punish or flick kids without them understanding why, otherwise they'll develop hatred towards you.

but i think we are mosly on the same page anyway...

I was watching some show on TV (could have can of worms) it was about kids etc...

Anyway, the one guy made a comment about how he raised his kids... "The most important thing is that I raise my children up in a loving way that makes life the most easiest & comfortable for them"

How week do you want your kids to be? lol

What happened to moral values & discipline and how will his kids ever develop character? I think this is probably why there are "10 year old teenagers" running around that have no backbone, no ambition or sense of purpose.

Making things comfortable & easy all the time isnt really good, its bad for them... trust me, if you keep stacking them up & spoon feeding them all the time. You become lazy, usless, spoilt etc etc.

You cant avoid growing pains if you want to grow... and things that land in your lap usually blow up in your face.

our society is certainly reaping the benefits, its all good

A good flogging never hurt anyone.

Not too sure on the latest approach, talking to kids theory, its popularity has grown over the last 15-20 years.
Going on my last encounter with three boofs on quad bikes, driving down residential street, ripping up people's lawns by doing figure eight turns on back wheels. When they stopped, I asked one if he felt it was out of line and destructive, just shrugged his shoulders and gave me the finger. His mate reckoned if the cops showed up, there was stuff all the cops would do anyway, as they couldn't catch them, and even if they did, there was stuff all would happen to them , so they were going to keep doing it

So, the ones not prepared to discipline your kids in some manner, other than blathering too them. This is a taste of what to expect in years to come[}:)]
And I have subbed the word "Stuff for the actual four letter word starting with F, this 13-14 year old was useing

mineral1 said...

Not too sure on the latest approach, talking to kids theory, its popularity has grown over the last 15-20 years.
Going on my last encounter with three boofs on quad bikes, driving down residential street, ripping up people's lawns by doing figure eight turns on back wheels. When they stopped, I asked one if he felt it was out of line and destructive, just shrugged his shoulders and gave me the finger. His mate reckoned if the cops showed up, there was stuff all the cops would do anyway, as they couldn't catch them, and even if they did, there was stuff all would happen to them , so they were going to keep doing it

So, the ones not prepared to discipline your kids in some manner, other than blathering too them. This is a taste of what to expect in years to come[}:)]
And I have subbed the word "Stuff for the actual four letter word starting with F, this 13-14 year old was useing

totally agree. there is lot of young buggers running around in that up to 25 year group that just don't give a **** about anyone, anything or any law.

these kids/young adults don't even understand what no or wrong is

but the do gooder, let little johnny be preachers don't see that

nothing wrong with this is going to hurt me more than you routine ie i love you but you have to be disciplined.
funny, we've been brainwashed with so much political correctness that word discipline almost seems obscene

and of course we aren't talking about out and out child abuse

I don't smack (as a rule) but there have been exceptions. The main thing the squids can expect a smack (arm/hand/bum) for is if they lose it and try to hit me or wifey. They know it is garaunteed then.

Last time I smacked was about 2 years ago. Got whacked by eldest son in a filthy temper. Smacked his hand twice HARD. Took ages to calm him down (real tears not the croc kind). Felt bad, but he has controlled himself (even when about to burst) ever since.

Agree kids are mamby pambered and too much is done for them these days, and am guilty of it myself. We expect good manners, sharing and respect at all times tho and pull them up real quick if it doesn't happen.

Unfortunately most of squid's friends are cut from differant cloth.. Don't tolerate any guff in our house but can tell oldest is wondering why he has differant rules and negotiating that at the mo.

Hoping for the best in teenage years.

elbeau said...

All four of my children are successful people. Educated, articulate professionals. More importantly however is the fact that they are kind people. They consider others and help the disadvantaged. They are kind to animals and not one of them is inclined to violence. They were all smacked as children, by me.

My thoughts exactly
congrats, its nice to see your kids doing well

^^^^

Agree completely with dinsdale and elbau on this one. Four kids, all grown now and I'm proud of each of 'em. Smacked swiftly and decisively by me and the missus when they were little. Had very few problems with them through the teenage years really and many of our friends commented on how well they were behaved.

The aim wasn't to make their life a misery and certainly not to hurt them in any major way. The aim was to register with them that they'd done something wrong. It had to be done quickly or not at all so they would know what it was that they had done wrong. The really hard part was also to be consistent, especially across both parents.

dinsdale said...

elbeau said...

What most people don't understand is the difference between discipline and punishment. Imposed discipline (when they're young children) becomes self discipline (as they grow up). Good discipline will preclude punishment

Fantastically put Dinsdale - not sure if it precludes punishment in all cases though?

Wifey used to chilli sauce them for bad language and I used to smack them for bad behaviour.

However when smacking them started hurting me more than them, I gave it away.

When children grow into teens, mostly they become brutes.

Consistancy is paramount as kids seem to develop a very keen sense of justice. (eg Last time I did that you only hit me once. This time you hit me twice.

With teens I think the only effective punishment is withdrawal of priveleges.

Daughter now nearly 20 has matured well, works hard but I think now realises her mistake in not completing year 12.

Son now 14 is doing really well academicly, has been playing soccer for 8 years and has been rowing for 2 years through which he has won a boarding scholarship at one of the best schools in Brisbane.

Has corporal punishment thwarted their personalities?? I think not.

When I was at boarding school punishment was with the cane on the buttocks and done formally ie in the teacher's common room preceeded by a short talking to.

Serious infractions of the rules (smoking) would attract up to six cuts of the cane from the deputy head master whose cane was short and stout and capable of drawing blood. These canings would happen in front of the rest of the assembled students.

It was hard to get away with stuffing newspaper down the back of your pants.[}:)]

The unwritten rule was that after a caning you had to drop your pants and show your battle wounds to your classmates which added a visual effect to the deterrent.

One of our teachers was Frank Nothling who you might have seen in the TV ads of Guide Dogs for the Blind a few years ago. A beautiful guy and a bit of a softie.
One morning when he was duty house master we all mucked up big time in the dormitory and he cracked up and said "The lot of you line up at the common room for 2 cuts each!!"
His cane was long and skinny and just a bit of a stinger. We all lined up and got our couple and then lined up for seconds.
He must have twigged eventually and sent us off to breakfast.

Is caning a bad thing in schools?? From my perspective I do not think so. There were not too many psychopaths or criminals came out of that school. There was one guy who came out of that school and was later named as a corrupt detective during the Fitzgerald Inquiry.

PS. However when smacking them started hurting me more than them, I gave it away.

I think smacking with the hand is not a good idea if it is avoidable. Tends to have an undertone of violence.

An instrument of discipline seems to have a greater deterrent effect. It might be the strap (narrow belt), the handle of the fluffy duster (such as my mother applied to me with great effect) or my all time favourite, the flat back of a wetted wooden spoon, which is always handy.

A little flick with that on a bare thigh or arm never fails to draw immediate attention.

Once a child has learned what that feels like a couple of times, a quiet question such as "Do you want me to wet the wooden spoon again?", usually brings about near angelic behaviour.

Oh NO!! Anything but the wet wooden spoon!!

No better way of confusing your children

I can smack you as I am bigger than you and you were naughty - but you cant hit anyone else cause smacking is wrong.

Find a better way

Try and use your logic next time some one annoys you or does the wrong thing - go on hit them for the same reasons you would your kid - sounds absurd doesnt it

If your whacking your kids you need to take a good hard look at yourself and go and get some parenting lessons

Funnily enough, russh, none of mine ever questioned it. Parents are like gods to a 3 year old.

And you're wrong - smacking was never naughty. On the other hand, fighting was always naughty and could easily result in a smack. We never fought with them.